Olli Rehn, member of the European Commission responsible for enlargement, has stated that Iceland would be a welcome addition to the Union, MBL reported.
This opinion, however, was not shared by his colleague Hans-Gert Pöttering, the President of the European Parliament, who stated that this kind of talk could make it more difficult to have the Lisbon agreement confirmed, especially in Ireland. The agreement is scheduled to be voted on next autumn.
Rehn stated that the confirmation of the agreement is a matter of principles necessary for managing the Union. In his opinion, it is totally relevant that he, as a member of the Union responsible for enlargement, participates in the discussions about what is happening regarding the EU expansion.
All European countries that meet the conditions set by the Union should be able to apply for membership to the EU.
Rehn points out that Iceland now fulfils all democratic requirements defined by the EU. Iceland is also a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), which has two thirds of the same regulations as the EU.
Rehn also assumes that Iceland will soon start the process of applying for membership to the EU and he furthermore assumes that the effort would encourage economic stability which is necessary especially due to the fact that Iceland now has serious financial problems.
(Photo source: MBL.is)
Croatia or Iceland? Who will be number 28? Find out at CROATIAORICELAND.TK.
Alexander, now I see where that mutual love between Lithuanians and Icelanders comes from – we have rods and they have fish :) After all, Icelanders were the first to recognize our independence :)
I am sure that among the 20 workers who were left in your Lithuanian-partner company, some are Lithuanian Russians. You see, after our independence all the Russians living in the country were given Lithuanian citizenship. Therefore Lithuanian Russians are the most integrated minority of our society. You can find them working everywhere through out our economy: banks, hospitals, real estate sector, even in the army! So, feel safe, the decision of our goverment to integrate into NORD POOL isn’t some kind of conspiracy to harm Russian people ;)
What kind of projects you are building here in Lithuania: shopping mall, apartments, offices?
P.S. Thanks, Niels, you are showing here a lot of sense and wisdom!
Hi Alexander,
What is it with Russia that it believes it can only gain respect in this world by threatening other countries, with gas/oil?
I mean, Russia is much more than just some arab country, it has great culture and wonderful literature with which it could impress the world much more.
It is offtopic but last year the new russian ambassador to Moldova started threatening moldovans at a press conference, ranting out: “You must obey Russia, otherwise no gas, no oil, darkness, coldness, misery etc.”
it turned out this man was nicknamed THE MAN OF 8 BILLION.
Reason: he had been ambassador to CZ in the early 90-ies and there he had made exactly the same ‘speech’, threatening the czechs that conseqeunces would be terrible if they dared to join EU and NATO.
The czechs politely replied: thank you for your clear words. we will take them very seriously.
In the next week the czechs cancelled every single contract with gazprom, lukoil and every other russian company.
Since then czechs have been buying all their gas and oil in Norway.
It is estimated that russian companies lost 8 billion USD because of this, this is how the guy got his nickname :-)
By bullying a country like Lithuania Russia will basically only bring it closer to EU. Even if the EU would really be a dictatorship, lithuanians will still prefer it to Russia. (and in my experience lithuanians are friendly people who in general are not hateful towards Russia)
I do not really mind if lithuanians will buy their gas in Norway in stead of Holland. Holland does not only depend on raw materials you know. We also export machines, chemicals , electrical equipment and lots of food and flowers. Apart from this there are plenty of dutch companies with specialized knowledge like improving harbour facilities (at klaipeda) or lifting lost submarines :-)
In fact, if our authorities would be wise they would conserve our mineral resources to the time when they really get scarce, then it really becomes very profitable (did you know that even Rotterdam is sitting on an oil field?) :-)
Do not underestimate the sympathy factor too. if I go to Lithuania and say I am from Holland I will be invited to everybody’s house and fed on great Zeppelinai. I would be saving travel expenses :-)
Yes, Iceland managed to increase its standard of living, but this was based on an unsound economical development (only borrowing)and now it faces a very big crisis. if iceland would have been in the EU it could have had access to all kinds of support packages.
You know, I could easily borrow 100.000 euro, buy a fancy car and an expensive dress and pretend that I am very rich, while in reality I am a poor man with debts and I will bee ruined when the bank demands back the loan.
You were asking the question why a country which already has a good standard of living by itself would join the EU. A really good question which I cannot really answer. But countries like Sweden and Finland (which already had a good standard of living before joining) joined the club some years ago by their own free will and so did Cyprus and Malta (like Iceland small island nations with a good standard of living) more recently.
I am convinced that without the EU (a gigantic zone of free trade) the dutch economy would not have grown so much as it did.
You know, before WW2 countries in western Europe only competed with each other economically or were even hostile to each other (France/Germany) . As a result everybody remained poor and the continent was divided.
Now we do not need to be affraid of wars and as for myself, I have seen constant economic advance during my life time (except for the last year off course) .
Now Iceland is absolutely free to join or not, I am neutral at this issue (you and your family are free to vote as you want) , I am only saying that the EU is not some evil monster.
Yes, trade will go down this year and probably also the next year, but that is the world wide crisis Alexander, Holland, Lithuania, Russia , the EU cannot do anything aobut that.
I do beleive that iceland has a lot more economical potential than it used in the past but that is a different story. It could develop its oil field, it could start exporting hydrogene (if this will become an important source of energy) and it could grow much more vegetables in greenhouses than it is doing now.
However, at the moment the icelandic economy has hit the bottom.
PS: you are right about dutch restaurants. I hate it too. Dutch are generous to other nations and greedy at the table. Russians are exactly the other way around ;-)
Niels wrote:
Yeah! I enjoyed the description of how real estate market is working there.
But this piece I like the most:
Kestas! You forget to add “the country will need less gas FROM RUSSIA”. Don’t worry – complaining about your bad neighbour is not bothering me at all. And I could suggest more savings. If you cook 30% less you’ll save another 30% on gas and extra 30% on food! A hell of money.
PS. Talked to one of my company’s owner (CEO back in Vilnius). OMG! They bought the share of their Lithuanian partner! I thought they were trying to sell and get some money back. Fired 20 out of 40 people and now thinking how to keep the rest till summer – as all projects “postponed till summer” as local clients explaining.
Kestas – do you think situation will be better in summer than now (I’m not talking about weather)? This is so typical for most of Icelanders – to believe 100% to the people with fishing rods …
2Niels
Thanks for detailed “report” about Dutch status within EU.
As this topic is about Iceland vs. EU I could tell you for sure that Iceland-Holland trade was, is and will be larger than with any of Baltic members of EU (and just with 300,000 people on board!). Cause Baltic members has Russia next to them. And as you know Russia is blackmailing them and forcing to buy gas from Russia instead of Holland. And use their ports to more Russian goods instead of Dutch stuff. Plus Baltic members are going to buy electricity not from Holland but from Norway – a non-member state. So I would reconsider Dutch donations ;)
So if you are not blind – you might also noticed that Iceland did the same – increased prosperity – without membership.
So why bother?
I have to agree. There was no Google when we were kids. And my kids can’t believe it! ;)
I’m not surprised. Does it mean Holland could spend some more money for one more non-EU country? Pliiiz :)
I’m not saying that. What I don’t understand why Holland – more exactly Dutch business – needs Eu for everything it’s doing now?
You are really generous person, Niels. And you paid for really good rod for Kestas. But I’m afraid next time he will ask for boat etc. ;)
As Icelanders learned fishing and boat making centuries ago – I think we’ll figure out how to clean up the current mess. Help is appreciated. But please – don’t save us ;)
PS. let’s see how Lithuanian import will increase this year ;) And Holland export as well.
PS-1 Your knowledge of current situation in Iceland is very close to reality. But as i said – let’s talk later how to get better prices even in high season ;)
And one more thing – I found restaurants in Holland good. Except one thing – in Iceland you get unlimited quantity of water, coffee and bread. In Holland – the waiters keeping everything in hands and give you one piece of bread and one drop of water per person. At least they were surprised when we asked them just to live glass and basket on the table.
@Gus / LORD EURO
When I went to Iceland I did not only travel with my wife but we also took a moldovan relative with us who was staying with us at that time. I really have to say that Iceland was quite affordable with (for instance) 999 kr for a 1 litre bottle of ‘black death’ (at the airport) and just 2500 kr .
for a very good winterly pullover which I still wear with pleasure. Moreover standards in the icelandic restaurants were really good, at least a lot better than in Holland (not exactly the culinary capital of the world off course:-)).
At the moment icelandair is offering weekend breaks to Reykjavik for 299 euro. One year ago it was still 499 euro.
http://www.icelandair.nl/offers-and-bookings/book-packages/package/item196750/
One of my colleagues here in the office got so enthusiastic that he booked a holiday to iceland for this summer (a 2 weeks roundtrip) . In fact, Iceland does have a lot of tourist potential now that it got cheaper for euro country-residents.
A popular program on german tv last weekend made a report on Iceland, becoming a cheaper holiday destination, however they came to the conclusion that it is only much cheaper during low season. Also the inflation means prices are going up while certain hotels even try to charge in euro’s :
http://www.daserste.de/ratgeber/reise_beitrag_dyn~uid,3jdu8olhq5ju4qt2~cm.asp (in german)
Unfortunately this inflation is very bad for ordinary icelanders whose salaries in kr. are not rising at all (on the contrary).
@Kestas
I think you are bringing some good facts to the table
Hi Alexander,
As for your fear that it will be very hard for me to pay for all the nice things that the EU is ‘giving’ to Lithuania I would like to say the following.
In the EU there are net payers (the richer countries) and net receivers (the poorer ones). there is a principle of solidarity that wealthier countries share with the less prosperous ones and i do believe that this is a good thing, provided that it can be proven that this money is used in a transparent and honest manner and does not disappear in some corrupt hole.
Up to 2004 the Netherlands paid about 5,2 billion euro to the EU and received some 2 billion back so there was a net payment of 3,2 billion.
this was a result of bad negotiations of the previous government. Compared to other countries Holland paid more than anybody else. A ridiculous situation since we are certainly not the richest country in the EU.
Still i would like to say that this amount of money was not more than 0,65 % of dutch GDP so it does not really hurt us. At least I do not feel that I cannot affford it.
Still thx for your concern Alexander :-)
There was protest against this and since the new government negotiated much harder a rebate to Holland of 1 billion after 2004 was agreed (very much against the will of mr. Barosso) .
This was made possible since the rebate of the UK, dating back to Thatcher was coming to an end, so basically the UK made up for this 1 billion.
At the moment our govenrment is bringing down the net contribution even further.
Even though I am not a fan of him , Wouter Bos is a very good and hard negotiator (just ask Mr. Mathiesen) and Holland (as the only country in the EU) has refused to accept the budget-statement of the EU, since it could not be made clear what the money we contributed has been used for (this is a fundamental problem in the EU, I agree) .
In order to avoid embarrassing discussions and disclosures it is likely that our contribution will get even lower (and already now it is only 0,5 % of GDP).
For your further information, Holland spends more money on development aid to the third world than to the EU.
Moreover I would like to say that the net amount paid is not just ‘money lost’.
Improvement of infrastructure and purchasing power in countries like Lithuania are certainly a benefit for us ,since we depend very much on external trade. Trade between the Netherlands and Lithuania has increased very much since Lithuania became an EU member. The following link is in dutch only but it states that trade between both countries is strongly increasing every year and in 2007 it increased 23 % compared to 2006.
http://www.evd.nl/zoeken/showbouwsteen.asp?bstnum=3625&location=/home/landen/landenpagina/land.asp?land=lit
Apart from this it increases the ‘sympathy factor’ to us too, off course , which is a nice side effect :-)
So it is not just “giving” it is contributing to general development of which, in the end, the whole EU is taking advantage.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not a blind supporter of EU and there are plenty of things which are very bad, but it is a fact that the EU has increased prosperity nearly everywhere.
I can honestly say, when I compare my present material situation to the one when I was a kid , that basically things have improved nearly every year.
As for the people form the former USSR I know (moldovan relatives, estonian ex-girlfriend) living standards in the USSR decrerased all the time during the 1980’s as the ‘stagnation’ caught on and perestroyka was not working.
To conclude: there is a definite difference to the way the EU works, and the way Comecon did (I do understand your unpleasant memories about the way things worked back in the USSR but it is just not the same).
In the EU it is possible to exert at least some influence on the money you get or pay. In comecon tanks were sent in when a country disagreed.
The EU has managed to increase standards of living for most people, because of an increase in trade and economic activity. Comecon failed at this.
DON´T CRY FOR ME ICELAAAAAAND, MY HEART WIL ALWAYS WITH YOUUUUUUU !!!! LALALALALA LALALALALA
PLEASE DON’T CRY…
ALEXANDER HONEY, I HAVE BEEN LIVING HERE FOR YEARS!! AND NOW THAT IT IS SO CHEAP IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO GO.
EVERYDAY IS A SHOPPING CELEBRATION!! I FEEL LIKE IF I WAS IN BULGARIA OR MEXICO!!
ANYTIME I GO OUT EATING OR SHOPING I COME HOME WITH SUCH A SMILE!! EVERYTHING IS SO CHEAP!!
ALEXANDER, JUST TO LET YOU KNOW, I TOOK MORE THAN 24 FLIGHTS ONLY LAST YEAR, ;-). I AM A VERY WEALTHY MAN, LIVING IN A VERY CHEAP COUNTRY BUT STILL HAVING A VERY GOOD JOB AND TWO SALARIES. (ONE OF THEM IN EUROS). I ALSO HAVE INTERESTS FROM MY BANKS ABROAD AND IN ICELAND AS WELL.
WHAT CAN I SAY. FOR ANY EU CITIZEN IT IS SO CHEAP TO LIVE HERE!! YOU DON´T NEED TO BE RICH TO ENJOY THIS COUNTRY. FOR THE MONEY YOU NEED TO SURVIVE IN EU YOU CAN LIVE HERE IN ICELAND LIKE A KING!!
ALEXANDER, HAVEN´T YOU REALIZED YET THAT YOUR CENTRAL BANK HAS PUT THE EURO AT 150 ISK?? DO YOU KNOW WHAT DOES IT MEAN?? THAT MEANS THAT THIS COUNTRY IS REALLY REALLY CHEAP FOR US!!!
ALEXANDER, AS I HAVE SAID MANY TIMES BEFORE, THIS CRISIS OF YOURS HAS MADE ME INCREDIBLY RICH… AND WELL, JUST SEEING THAT I HAVE THE DOUBLE OF MONEY I HAD AND SEEING THAT I HAVE A GREAT AMOUNT OF EUROS… WELL, IT MAKES ME FEEL LIKE A PRINCE WHEN I WALK IN THE STREETS OF REYKJAVÍK, KNOWING THAT SO MANY ICELANDERS HAVE NOT A JOB.
WELL, ICELAND IS A VERY NICE COUNTRY FOR HOLIDAYS, CHEAP, BEAUTIFUL PLACES, AND VERY AFFORDABLE ACCOMODATION ( RENT PRICES ARE GOING DOWN AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE ABANDONED THE COUNTRY AND BANKS HAVE GOT SO MANY HOUSES NO ONE CAN BUY) IT IS CHEAPER TO RENT A LUXURIOUS APARTMENT IN REYKJAVIK THAN AN UNDERGROUND STORAGE WITHOUT WINDOWS IN THE SUBURBS OF BARCELONA…
I KNOW NOW WHAT I AM GOING TO DO. I AM GOING TO TRAVEL AROUND THE WORLD AND LET THE ICELANDIC BANKS PAY ME THE MONTHLY INTEREST OF 17% FOR SOME OF THE MONEY I HAVE HERE. 17% I GET FROM ICELANDIC BANKS AND 6% I GET FROM THE SPANISH AND 4% FROM THE SWISS BANKS…
REALLY, I WILL ALWAYS BE SO GRATEFUL TO ICELAND FOR MAKING MY LIFE SO EASIER…
WELL, NOW ALL FOREIGNERS ARE GETTING OVER ICELAND BUYING EVERYTHING AT A LAUGHING PRICE!!…
I WANT TO MOVE TO BARCELONA AND TRAVEL AROUND THE WORLD, SPECIALLY ICELAND BECAUSE IT IS SO CHEAP NOW… I WILL COME AT LEAST TWICE A YEAR AND BRING MY FRIENDS WITH ME…
I HAVE BEEN NOTICING THE WAY ICELANDERS LOOK AT ME NOW, THE LOOK IN A DIFFERENT WAY TO FOREIGNERS NOW, SPECIALLY WHEN WE GO BUYING GOOD CLOTHES HERE AND THERE, AND JUST ENJOYING CHEAP ICELAND EVERYWHERE…
THIS IS THE FOREIGN CAPITALIST CELEBRATION OF THE ICELANDIC IGNORANCE…
HAHAHA :D THE WHOLE WORLD IS LAUGHING AT YA!!
FIRST PROCLAIMING TO BE THE RICHEST IN THE WORLD AND NOW BEGGING CAP IN HAND… DJESUS KRAIST !! HAHAHAHAHAHA, WHAT A RIDICULOUS SOCIETY, THINKING OF THEMSELVES AS SUPERIOR AND MORE ADVANCED ,AND AT THE END THEY HAVE SHOWN THE REST OF US WHERE GREED AND IGNORANCE CAN GET YOU TO BE..
WHAT A RIDICULOUS SOCIETY…
Oh, there is a huge wisdom behind the policy of EU! It is much wiser to give a rod, instead of giving a fish :)
The arguments of a kind that “we have to pay for them” are the most loved between a populist politicians. Cause they understand that it is easy to sell it to a crowds. It is always much easier to play with a short-sightedness and an ego feelings of the people. But it takes much more competence to explain to a crowd why it is of the interest of its own to apply such a policy.
Consider the help which Iceland and other European countries have received in a past under the Marshall plan. What would have happened to Europe if it just have been left as it stood – all ruined? Would that had been an interest of USA to have a ruined Europe? Well, hopefully, they made a wise decision, instead of a short-sight – and now Europe is the biggest market for USA, the trade between the two is the biggest in a world, the tourist of Europe are overwhelmingly the top visitors of the country, and USA has a strong ally and so on! Therefore, we can see that a decision to help was a more pragmatical one than a decision not to help :)
Or where will Iceland would have been now if it was left on its own – without no help? Would you preferred if the people of Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Poland and other members of EU which have helped Iceland with money would have bought into the policy you are suggesting here.
Instead the people of those countries have shown a solidarity with Iceland despite the fact that they have no obligation to do this. Hopefully with a help of EU and others Iceland will become prosperous once again. And maybe some of the people of this beautiful country therefore will change the belief of EU as a USSR :)
I have read somewhere an analysis that 1 Euro spend in a way like EU is spending under the Structural and Cohesion Funds pays back as 5 Euros in a future. Some analyst even are saying that a new EU members are like a China next to Western Europe. Consider, in Poland there are more German companies than in all Russia!
Regarding the plans of Lithuanian goverment to start a programme of renovation it has a multiply benefit for the economy. First, as I already said here it helps to stabilize the sector of real estate. It does this cause instead of going bankrupt a real estate companies have a job to do and a means to whether the Global financial crisis. Therefore, a real estate companies will get an influx of money which will make it possible not to lose the hocked constructions to banks or not to sell them for the crying prices. But instead to survive the period of the crisis and to sell the constructions when the prices will be reasonable and a people start buying once again. I suggest your Lithuanian partner-company to consider this. But I guest it is already aware of this.
The second, the programme will safegurd a workplaces. This will help the whole economy a lot.
The third, people will be living more comfortably.
And finally, this will safe a hell of money for the budget of Lithuania. Cause renovated building eats more than 30% less “gas” than an old one. So, roughly speaking the country will need 30% less “gas”. A hell of money ;)
What is the financial solution to renovate such a massive amount of buildings? Free-loans :) Well, not exactly free, you see, when the renovation is finished the building saves more than 30% for the heating. So, this difference will go to banks as a loan refund. Therefore, for the people renovation will be free, I suppose. The goverment just needs to negotiation and establish such a mechanism with banks.
Concerning the NORD POOL, EU is giving, not lending, those money for two projects: 1) for electricity cable from Lithuania to Sweden, 2) from Estonia to Finland. Therefore the Baltics will be integrated into NORD POOL – which is a single energy market of Scandinavia when each electricity company inside this market can freely sell and buy an energy from whatever it wants. The opposite, like it is now in the Baltics that it is just a national company which you are selling an energy from. This EU spending once again is an investment rather than just spending – 1) the Baltics will be safeguarded from Russian blackmailing and 2) this is a one step a head in creating a genuine European market of energy where everyone is able to sell and buy an energy from whatever it wants. The benefit is obvious :) Besides, EU isn’t giving all the money we need, we still will need to refund it together with EU funding – as with all EU money it gives. This is also a compensation for the Baltics for closing an old soviet nuclear plant. They are giving us a rod rather than a fish – which is just a money to buy a gas from Russia.
P.S. Lets keep a discussion in a constructive and a peaceful mood ;)
@Alexander
Or you can olso do that, make a fool of yourself, GUS lives in Iceland, like I told you before, think before you speak OR type. Man you probe me right every time. Remenber “OR” means you can choose beteen both options.
So it makes no sense to ask how LIT vs. EURO is doing as it is just another form of EURO.
Hard to argue with that. But special note to Niels – it is him who will pay the ticket. Believe me ;)
Is NORD POOL a private entity or huge government monster? Not clear whether EU is going TO SPEND money or TO INVEST money (and get them back with modest interest).
Sure it is. But again not clear – is this a free gift to the Lithuanian government, an investment or a long term loan?
If loan – isn’t it too huge for double hit economy?
This is exactly what I’m trying to say. It is all about “gimme more money”. Like a spoiled kid and mom. Of course Kestas keeps saying “EU is very good for us”. I understand.
What I don’t understand why Niels is so happy about it. He has to pay all this bills and I doubt anyone in Brussels has ever asked Niels what he thinks about it. Like in the USSR – all decisions (good or bad) were made by few guys in Moscow… ;)
And it shows a huge difference with the purchase of Swedish Kaupthing by fishermen from remote island. Very pragmatic, business decision. People over there really understand the difference between used Toyota bank and brand new Porshe bank. You pay fraction of money and is able to move you ass more effective ;) As ANY decision made by people on the ground is better than decision made by some lunatics somewhere far away.
Sound familiar – for 15 years to come…Like a promise to build communizm by the 1980 (according to the plan).
And I’m confused, Kestas. Will government borrow money from banks? If yes – why you can not borrow them and renovate a couple of building then sell them? I guess you’ll do it in more effective way than government. Unless, of course, you have a full trust in your government as very competent, transparent, fair etc.
Not clear how it will stabilize. As you said “Firstly, because it was already overfilled. The money from Scandinavian banks was flowing solidly, therefore the bubble was created and it blown-up.”
So it sounds like they are going to try to pump blown-up bubble…
But – well – I wish Lithuania will get everything EU promises to give and even more.
And let’s hope Niels can pay it ;)
It’s good to know that hitchhiking is impossible by planes. Only by cars. So we will never see sir eurogus here, in Iceland.
Well, he can try hitchhike by ships… so I hope he is sea-sicker :)))
PS. sir eurogus, I doubt you can afford to buy even baggage ticket at cheap Icelandair flights ;)
HEY PEOPLE, LETS GET TO THE CENTRAL POINT OF THIS. THIS IS ABOUT ICELAND IN THE EU AND NOT A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE SITUATIONS OF OTHER COUNTRIES. IT IS USELESS TO COMPARE URSS WITH EU AND OTHER EU COUNTRIES WITH ICELAND.
TO START WITH, EU HAS NEVER BEEN IN THE CASE OF ADMITING A VERY POOR-IN BANKRUPTCY-TOTALLY RUINED COUNTRY BEFORE.
I REALLY HOPE THAT EU WILL NOT LET ICELAND JOIN THE EUROZONE. EU IS ONE OF THE MOST SUCESSFUL LEADING POLITICAL AND ECONOMICAL ENTITIES OF THE WORLD. WE HOLD ONE OF THE STRONGEST AND MOST ESTABLE CURRENCIES OF THE WORLD. WE ARE AN EXAMPLE IN ENVIROMENTAL LINKED ECONOMY, AERO-SPACIAL TECHNOLOGY, DEMOCRACY, EDUCATION ETC…
COMPARING TO THE EU ICELAND IS AT VERY MUCH LOWER LEVELS. ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY, POLITICALLY AND TECHNOLOGICALLY SPEAKING.
IN EU WE ARE TIRED OF RESCUING POOR COUNTRIES. WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THAT.
IN EU WE NEED TO CONCENTRATE IN OUR OWN DEVELOPMENT. WE COULD KEEP SENDING ECONOMIC AND LOGISTIC HELP TO ICELAND. BUT IT IS A BAD MOVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY OF THIS RUINED COUNTRY AND CHAOTIC SOCIETY.
WE SHOULD KEEP ICELAND AS IT IS, POOR AND DEPENDENT ON OUR ECONOMIC HELP AND INTERNATIONAL AID PROGRAMS. IT IS THE BEST WAY TO KEEP THIS COUNTRY. WE CAN NOW GET THE FISH AT LAUGHING PRICES!!, LETS THE ICELANDERS GO AND FISH IT FOR US!!. AND THEN IT IS SO GOOD TO HAVE A COUNTRY CHEAPER THAN BULGARIA TO SPEND OUR HOLIDAYS OR JUST MAKE WEEKEND TRIPS AND GET SERVED BY BEAUTIFUL BLOND GIRLS THAT WILL SERVE US SO WELL!!
HOW DO YOU LIKE ICELAND??
I LOVE IT!!
CHEAP AND NICE!!
@Alexander
+++++++++
BTW Kestas, I do not think the Litas depreciated so badly as the ruble and the ISK against the EUR?
So who is bankrupt?
I’ve got the impression that Lit is linked to Euro. Directly. So it’s technically same currency.
++++++++++
Alexander, technically it is not the same. Linking (‘pegging’) a currency to another one requires money and effort and it is not an automatic decision. A national bank must be able to exert influence on the rate of its currency in order to maintain the link.
When the krona began to fall last october the icelandic governement tried to link it to the euro on the 7th of october but it had to abandon this already the next day because Iceland was unable to support this rate (134 kr-1 euro at that time) .
If you read the article on the support package to Latvia you will see that part of its goal is to enable Latvia to maintain the link between their currency and the euro.
What I was saying is: while Russia and Iceland have been unable to defend the value of their currency, Lithuania so far managed to do so.
Now, a weakening of the national currency doesn’t only have bad sides off course, since it makes exports cheaper, but that is another discussion :-)
Straight from the Latvian PM.
http://mbl.is/mm/frettir/sjonvarp/?fl=0;media_id=22877;play=1&ref=fpsjonvarp
Listen to the part at 2:50 ;)
use “”
If you don’t see the symbol – here is the tip
press SHIT+”,” and SHIT+”.” instead of ( and )
WordPress engine!!!!!
opps
Hiels
It didn’t work first time about quotes.
To get quotes you need to use following formatting
(blockquote)TEXT(/blockquote)
but instead of ( use
@Alexandre
Yes you can also do that too, try to divert attention when you have nothing to say.
Niels, it is so nice to find that you had an Estonian girlfriend – I know Estonian girls are just remarkable :)
Well, I see there is an interest to know more about Lithuanian economy and how EU helps us. So, I will try to make my best by explaining it as clearly as possible.
Unfortunately, Lithuania was hit double. Firstly, its natural economical cycle of growth was heading towards decline. This process is natural! But the second thing is, that this natural cycle of growth was heading towards decline at the time when Global financial crisis has occur. Therefore Lithuania was hit double.
But still Lithuania is in better shape than Latvia or Estonia whose natural economical cycles of growth started to head towards decline earlier.
Now, how EU helps us! The first, as Alexander said and he was right, Lithuania is a member of ERM II – what is an European Exchange Rate Mechanism. This mechanism links national currencies with Euro. In this way Litas is protected. This is really a huge help for nations with small currencies. I know that Iceland has also asked for such a protective measure but EU declined it by the ground that Iceland isn’t a full-member.
The second, EU helps us with money:
1. There is allocated 11,7 billion Euros for Lithuania in EU Structural and Cohesion Funds for the period of 2007-2013. Those money are being spent on infrastructure, education and other projects. Believe me, it is an enormous help!
2. Recently, EU decided to spend 5 billion Euros on energy and internet projects. 700 Euros from this package will go on integrating the Baltics to single Scandinavian energy market – NORD POOL.
3. Lithuanian goverment is preparing an economical stimulus package worth more than 1,2 billion Euros. More than half of this sum will come form European Bank of Investment. Believe me, it is a huge some for Lithuanian economy.
4. If the things go worse, Lithuania will get more help. Like in the case of Latvia.
EU helped Iceland with money, as well.
Considering the situation with real estate in Lithuania. Well, that’s probably the sector hit the most. Firstly, because it was already overfilled. The money from Scandinavian banks was flowing solidly, therefore the bubble was created and it blown-up. In this case a lot of guilt lies in a hands of banks and real estate companies which underestimated that the bubble is growing.
Secondly, the Global financial crisis also doesn’t help the sector of real estate. Cause people are scared a little bit and even if they have a money they don’t rush to by apartments and so on. A lot of them just hesitate waiting for prices to fall even more.
But hopefully, the goverment will be putting a lot of money towards renovation of houses, schools, public buildings and so on. The plan is to renovate 2000 buildings each year – and so for 15 years to come. Until all the old buildings will be renovated :) The money will come from economical stimulus package and EU and banks – as loans. That will help to stabilize the real estate sector! The first influx of money is planned to come from March.
@Niels
Dont worry it is clear that Alexander can not read or pretends not to and only reads what he wants and then twist it.
@Easy.
You seem to be very easy to upset and get crying “hjlap” with the very first bump on the road.
This is YOUR problem and I’m not a psyhiatr to help you.
If you think you country is bankrupt – I have no problem with that.
What I can tell for sure – you have very little idea what real crisis is and what does it mean to be really bankrupt.
I could ask you to imagine – enginn bensin at any gas station, no milk and bread at the stores (chicken – what’s that?), no beer in the bars (no bars as well) – but I’m afraid about your mental state. If you’re crying NOW…
Nothing personal indeed but I have no interest to wipe off your tears and snot.
@Alexander
One more thing:
+++++++++++++
I suggest that anybody who makes deragatory statements about the baltic states visits the estonian border town of Narva and compares it to the russian town on the other side of the border.
First time I visited Tallinn more than 25 years ago. And it was much better over there at that times as well. Different world. So what? Would you argue that Iceland looks better of than Estonia? Then and now?
Hello, Niels! We are not talking about Estonia vs. Russia…
++++++++++++
Since you made negative comments about the economic situation in the baltic states I came up with a comparison between the estonian border city of Narva (even not exactly the most prosperous town in Estonia) and the russian region, just on the other side of the river. So neighbouring regions in the same period of time..
Please read carefully, it is NOT Estonia vs Russia.
If you still feel that this is a comparison between uncomparable entities, well ok…but in that case you certainly should not compare the EU with the USSR like you did earlier in this thread!
Even though it is off topic: in my opinion the present economic problems in Lithuania or the other baltic states (or more accurately: their vulnerability to the world wide crisis) are not caused by missmanagement and ill-judgement like it has been the case in Iceland but by the fact that these countries have only been market-economies since less than 20 years.
As a result they have not been able to accumulate financial reserves which the countries in western Europe have.
Russia does have large financial reserves too, but just because of its enormous mineral resources (added to high prices for oil).
In western Europe, at least up to now, governments have been able to bail out companies in severe trouble and stimulate the economy. Baltic states do not have the resources for this.
However, as in the case of Latvia, they DO get support and personally I am very much in favour of this form of solidarity.
For an assessment of the icelandic system, once more, I refer to this analysis by Buiter, already made in APRIL 2008:
http://www.nber.org/~wbuiter/iceland.pdf
@Alexander
I honestly appreciate your serious response to my post.
A good link you sent, however if you have a further look at the document you will also read the following:
+++++++++
It is likely that the billions of euros allocated by the EU for implementing energy projects
will improve the EU’s image again. This is quite possible because, compared to other
countries, the image of the European Union is certainly not the worst (even on the
contrary) among Lithuanian residents. The essence of this image is also very well
illustrated by responses of EU citizens in general to the question as to on what, in their
opinion, most of the EU budget is spent. According to a majority of Europeans, these are
the costs for maintaining bureaucracy. In Lithuania, however, this attitude is not
supported. In this respect, the Lithuanian population is accidentally or not accidentally
much better informed. The Lithuanian population thinks very correctly that most of the
budget is spent on promoting economic growth and assisting agriculture and rural
development. Yet, when asked about their priorities when distributing the EU budget,
Lithuanian residents and the population throughout the EU agree that the share of the
budget spent on agriculture and rural development should be reduced.
+++++++++++
(sorry about the +++ I do not know how you manage to get these cool black lines )
In general there is an increase in pessimism of citizens: this has to do with the worldwide crisis off course and I do not think Lithuania is alone in this. So in my opinion the EU and its issues are not the cause of these sentiments:it is the worldwide crisis.
Has the EU failed to ‘rescue’ Lithuania? Perhaps the situation in Lithuania is not yet so bad as in Latvia, whid DID receive help. Please take a look at this:
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1229715121.77/
If things deteriorate further in Lithuania there might be a similar package.
I feel sincerely sorry that your company got cheated in Lithuania but unfortunately disreputable bussiness partners do exist. No, the EU would not be very helpfull in this case, however, new member states like Lithuania have been forced to adapt modernized legislation regarding bussiness, so there is now a much better condition for legal action against a disreputable partner than there has been in the past.
Finally, about IMF/China borrowing money, please keep in mind that the IMF is not just a bank: they have all kinds of extra demands to their debtors regarding the economic and social organization, demands which in general are not pleasant for the average inhabitant of such a country. You can look at countries like Argentina and Uruguay to get an idea of this.
BTW thx for your tip: I certainly do intend to visit Iceland once more since I like it very much. There is some air of paradise about the place, even during these times.
Alexander, I think you are either inadequate or playing this childish denial game on purpose. As you are so good at it and already mentioned that you are interested in mediation between Lithuanian and Icelandic businesses, maybe you should be a mediator between German, British, Irish etc. goverments on the one side and Icelandic goverment on the other one – maybe you will manage to convince the Icelandic goverment that the country isn’t bankrupt and it can give back all the savings of the people it fucked. I bet the EU goverments will pay you a hell of money – much more than you get at your current job. But I suggest you to use the better arguments than I have heard here ;)
And if you will manage to complete this then I can recommend you to the Lithuanian companies which lost their money because Icelandic companies are so “prosperous” that they can’t pay back… I also can recommend you to other companies in EU which have lost a hell more in Iceland than your boss in Lithuania ;)
And if you will manage to accomplish this, I suggest you to run for elections – which will be held in a few months. Then you could change that stupid commerce minister Gylfi Magnusson who has said that adoption of the euro is a more logical step towards restoring financial stability than a currency co-operation with Norway. Maybe you will find a better way to restore this country :)
Besides, as you were born in USSR, you definitely know the methods they used… So, you definitely are the right person to create the “Greenland-Faroe-Norway-Iceland Union of Soviet Republics” :)
You are saying that Iceland already has all the benefits which it could get from the membership in EU. Let me remind you that Iceland has a lot of the benefits which it could get from the membership in EU because it is already a half-member of EU. Yes, you get it right – Iceland is a half-member of EU by belonging to EFTA!
Therefore, I find the following comments so childish:
– Iceland will have to pay contribution to EU bureaucrat mechanism?
– what Iceland can or can not do without EU?
– huge expenses (for the small country) to re-print and translate a mountains of papers (aka laws and regulations)
– huge travel expenses to send people back and force between Reykjavik and the EU capital
– huge travel expenses to go around all EU members to beg for their “approvals” and “permissions”
I hope you understand why those comments look childish when taking into consideration EFTA.
The right question is not whether it is worth for Iceland to become a member of EU. The right question is whether it is worth for Iceland to progress from being a half-member to being a full-member.
Your arrogant, unilateral and aggressive approach is unacceptable to me. If you are interested to engage in a constructive dialogue we can both try to find out what are plus/cons for Iceland to progress from a half-member to a full-member. I won’t gonna be the one who bluntly will force Iceland to become a member and I hope you won’t be the one who bluntly will keep rejecting.
If you are ready for this kind of discussion we can punch “reload” :)
@alexander
OK, Clearly not being able to read is one more thing in your curriculum list, I said that Iceland has not paid its obligations because of the restrictions AND NOT paid even the interest of the investmen(which are not included in the currency restrictions)and that alone adds up to the 1 billon we have as national resrves, so they are trying to convice the investors to get more bonds or shares instead, That is NOT PAYING its obligations dah!! olso the definition of NATIONAL BAKRUPTCY according to reuters says not paying its obligations OR not beeing able to pay for imports, in case you dont know (clearly not) the meening of “OR” it means that it can be one OR both thingin the definition. So you should ask somebody to read the posts for you, by the way ask somebody that knows how to read(that helps alot). As for the surplus beetwen the imports and exports then again it is because of the currency exchange controls, but they can not and will not keep this currency controls for much longers couple of months tops. But as Niels say you just come up with your ideas based on your EXPIRIENCE and not backing anything up just typing what you think things are, also what part of
“So its very differnt if the goberment has not sent you a personal letter letting you know about it, but I suppose you can add 2+2, can you?
you dont get, when you ask “I might have missed it – but did Iceland DECLARED bankruptcy? Did any other …who really? …declared Iceland bankrupt?”
Man you really argue like a child that just wants to be right, at leas fishy comes with something on the tabe, but you… your 35 YEARS EXPERIENCE!!
@Easy
Easy, please. I know a little about politics and economy. Only from personal experience – one collapsed superpower, two crisis afterwards in what remains of collapsed country, over a decade of business with remaining superpower, several years watching Iceland – since 2000 bust to these days. Not saying about my course in scientific communizm :)))) Total – 35 years of work, military and academic experience. Well I have never been a fisherman, pilot or dantist. Otherwise tried everything. Even was registered car dealer in US (sorry) and made research for USAD about agro-“business” in USSR then.
But as I said – I never ever visited Harvard Business School. But I met with its graduates…and was not impressed at all.
So let put aside my experience and your knowledge and look at facts.
That’s strange statement for the person who knows about economy…and who explains why things are as they are. You said “because of the currency control rules”, right?
Exactly! I think you know that the mess should be cleaned up first before anyone can clearly see what he has in hands and in what shape. And 4 months to sort out national money matters is short time from my point. Unless we want to step into other dipper mess right away. Do you want it, Easy? Then even small depositing “investors” should forget about their money.
I might have missed it – but did Iceland DECLARED bankruptcy? Did any other …who really? …declared Iceland bankrupt? Except Sackur and other journalistic experts – Not yet.
Not able to pay for imports? Really? Well I’m eating bananas from Akureyri then. If you missed, Easy, since October last year Iceland has positive foreign trade balance. P-o-s-i-t-i-v-e. For two reasons – increasing export and sharply decreasing import. So no more fancy cars, much less other fancy stuff. But I think Iceland should import even less. Still far too many things you can live without.
I don’t believe in that. I know that. As everyone else here. Looks like only you missed that this is interim government and people will vote for a new one in April. Or do you think it would have been wise just to close all government buildings and Althingi and wait till April? I’m afraid this might make “investors” much more nervous than they are already now. And it’s not revolution, you know, when people burn everything and throw everything away…just to find out they are in same shit as before.
So it’s national political culture – to use skyr against police and government. But it works here. So nothing wrong with that, don’t you agree?
PS. And I can vote… ;)
@ SIR EURO
Maybe you could simply post as € (like prince) you could be > € – the poster formerly known as GUS
May I recomend to you to try the “brunch” at the Nitjandi resturant in tower next to Smaralind at only 3000 isk a head you can eat like a king (and waited on by only Iceland servants)
Maybe you could “splash out” on a well deserved bottle of champagne!
NOTE- the point I am making is if you post stupid remarks expect stupid replies!
P.S the “brunch” in Nitjandi is good though!
maybe I do, Bromley86, maybe… And I agree that Iceland doesn’t enjoy all of the items it did have before… but who does it NOW?
BUT! But if you say that you think EU would pay all Icelandic debts – as part of the “membership package” – then many Icelanders would support it ;)
Otherwise – why bother?
And yes – we have one common ground here – it’s called common sense ;)
@Niels
Though it was your lovely discussion with Kestas – let me add my two eyrir.
I would be silly to think China gives money for free. But I didn’t know that IMF gave it to Iceland for free. If this is the case – thanks, Niels! :)
There was a joke in late USSR – “Let’s get loan from IMF, hire their experts using this loan and get them working out to pay back the loan”…
“In Autumn 2008, a standard Eurobarometer survey was carried out in all the 27 member states of the European Union.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb70/eb70_lt_exec.pdf
During the survey, 1011 respondents were nterviewed throughout Lithuania…
The survey was conducted over the period October 9-28, 2008.
The trends in public opinion, which were already seen back in the spring of 2008, are
very evident in the current Eurobarometer survey: the current situation is bad and the
immediate future will be even worse. If, half a year ago, such trends in Lithuania were
mostly related to the growth of inflation rates and a still unclear concern about the
economic situation, then, now, everything has become clear: the economy is stagnating,
a crisis has struck the financial system and hard times are anticipated in the future.”
Well, well, well…but I have a question to Kestas. Since October 2008 how have situation changed? Have EU helped Lithuania to get out of stagnation?
Kestas, what about this paragraph:
“It is probable that the declining favourable attitude of Lithuanians towards the European Union is related to energy. This tendency can also be related to the overall negative situation, concern about the future and the unfulfilled hope the EU membership would
protect us from economic disasters. What is more is that it is also probably partly related to the final say in the issue regarding prolonging the operation of the Ignalina nuclear power station. After the European Commission had made its final statement that there could be no further discussions regarding the prolonging of the INPS’s work, Lithuanian residents were given a new opportunity to evaluate the benefit and costs of the EU membership.”
Just your PERSONAL position about the issue, please.
“During the last half a year, the share of Lithuanians who think that things are going in the
right direction in Lithuania has decreased by 17 percentage points, i.e. to 19 percent;whereas, 30 percent of Lithuanians believe that things are going in the right direction in
the EU, i.e. a fall of 22 percentage points, compared to half a year ago.”
It sounds like they are talking about Iceland and not happy EU member state…
So again – why bother?
First time I visited Tallinn more than 25 years ago. And it was much better over there at that times as well. Different world. So what? Would you argue that Iceland looks better of than Estonia? Then and now?
Hello, Niels! We are not talking about Estonia vs. Russia…
Agree that 2/3 is not good. But in Vilnius office lay-off are 100% … So still 1/3 better than EU member ;)
I didn’t say Lithuanians were evil. Neither stupid. Very good, many with Soviet education. The problem is – there is no real economy over there. As soon as foreign money stopped flowing into the country – it’s started collapsing. As simple as that. All project we were involved – shopping malls, warehouses for shopping malls, offices for trade companies. Not a single industrial facility!
And you are right, Niels – it was bad strategic decision. But CEO and other bosses have started to ask my opinion AFTER they faced first problems over there. When they were making their mind they were sure – they are dealing with European country, member of EU brotherhood etc. A little bit later they realized that in many respect it was not the case at all. And to file a paper you need to know right people – to be able to “stimulate” them to get your papers through. What a surprise!
So our company dumped huge money to develop business there – good, solid, fair business – just to find out that the boom is over and chances to get money back is close to zero. Well, in long term – like next decades – they might be good. But now…
Have I complained?
I just asked Kestas when his countrymen were going to pay back money invested by Iceland over there. As the response to his request for Iceland to pay something to EU. So far I have never heard Lithuania “invested” anything here.
So unless you, Niel, think that chances of my company to recover investments in Lithuania would be better if Iceland is EU member – I see no reason to bother with EU. At all.
But looks like my company is more ready now to talk to Chinese businessmen. So far they never failed nor fooled us. Always right stuff in the right time. Design is very good, all documents in good English, response time – instant. Well they will be much more tough on the financing now. But if we sell them our Vilnius office! I should talk to CEO on Monday. Thanks guys, for the idea!!! Half the price is better than nothing.
I hope none of the Icelandic hotel/restaurant owners are reading this discussion. Otherwise they’ll kill me :) And they’ll be right to do so… well, after second thought, better not to tell the truth. But I can assure you, Niel – you were not ripping off people here, don’t worry :)
For those who want to come here – contact me or other people here before you book anything. To get really good treatment :) And sorry for those who were ripped off by viking. They have to be more greedy now than usual – kreppa time :(
I’ve got the impression that Lit is linked to Euro. Directly. So it’s technically same currency.
PS. SORRY gus AKA NEW sir euro.
But I’m just skipping everything written in CAPITAL letters. Thanks that you make my life easier ;)
@Alexander
You Said:
Well, so far the first government in the “West” that felt due to people’s will. Other governments are still able to fool their respective citizens much better. So – HAHA again…
So you belive that that actually happened? well, hahaha on you, thught you had at least some where some how a little common scense. Do you really belive thay change the goberment. hahaha again!!
@Alexander
You Said:
I think different and will vote out this “new minister” in a couple of months. And I have FOUR votes in my family. You have – NONE :)
Still don’t see the difference?
Sorry but I dont think you can vote, (I could be mistaken dough)
@Alexander
You said:
“I might disappoint you but Iceland is not bankrupt. At least now. And for sure it less bankrupt than LLE (aka three Baltic countries). The difference between you and me is very simple. You read news about Iceland and give me advices. I’m living and working here and see the difference between news and reality. You – don’t. You even not Easy – at least he knows that cashiers from EU countries are better than locals.”
If you would know a little about Economic and Politics you woldent be saying soch stupid things clearly without knowing, Icelan IS in worst situation that baltic countries, the national reserves is LESS than 2 Billion Euros at the Controlled rate in Iceland which in termes of national resrves you heve to use the reall rate that Europe and the rest of the world use so we have less than 1 Billion in reserves, do you even know what that means? another thing for the last 4 months the Icelandic Nation HAS NOT paid its obligations with other countries and forigner investors, because of the currency control rules in efect they can not pay or the investors can not take their investments, only the Interests and guess what? they are NOT EVEN paying the interests, they even have a meeting next week to try to offer them more bonds or shares in the “NEW” banks, its been 2 payments of interests that are due by now, about half a billion euros each, that means we would run out of ANY money, so Iceland IS NOT PAYING its forigner obligations, do you know what its called? BANKRUPTCY
WHAT IS IT?
Bankruptcy is when an entity is declared unable to pay creditors. The phrase “national bankruptcy” in essence, it could be read to mean a country cannot pay its debts OR raise foreign currency to pay for imports. REUTERS.
So its very differnt if the goberment has not sent you a personal letter letting you know about it, but I suppose you can add 2+2, can you?
And you know its ok to say “ok, i didnt know that that changes things”, doesnt it?
Iceland IS in bankruptcy there is NO question about it.
@Kestas, Gus
Nice to read some sensible posts in this thread.
As for the rather wild idea to bring in China as a ‘favourable alternative to the EU’ : do you think China will give Iceland money for free??
They are the hardest bussinesspeople on the planet, even the dutch are affraid of their sense of bussiness!
Already on an earlier occasion I was surpised that many icelanders feel so negative about the EU that they would rather submit completely to China, dubious investores or whoever could come up with money for them than to think about the EU.
However, if it is the wish of a majority of icelanders to do so, I will not stop them (who am I?).
The exact size of the debts and the way they will be dealt with is still not clear but it is a fact that Iceland is economically bankrupt and some solution (whatever it might be) has to be found.
Easy has made a point that it seems at the moment Iceland is burning thru the IMF loan, only to support the value of the kr. and to pay its most acute debts. I do believe he has a point with this, since he supports his claim with facts.
Kestas, since in the past I had an estonian girlfriend I visited the baltics (Lithuania too) on several occassions and I found that generally people are very happy with EU membership.
In the baltics things improved very much after they got out of the USSR and once more after they entered the EU.
Thank god the USSR lost the cold war, this improved the lives of millions.
Apart from the fact that economic figures clearly prove this point this girl (who now happens to be amabassador in one of the other EU countries) has also been very clear on this point.
I suggest that anybody who makes deragatory statements about the baltic states visits the estonian border town of Narva and compares it to the russian town on the other side of the border. Narva is mostly inhabited by russians but even they are happy about the fact that they are living in Estonia, since their salaries are higher, paid in time, there is less crime and they can go and work in other EU countries.
As with Alexander, the fact that he is unable (as usual) to come up with other arguments than his own very wonderful, great and conclusive experience, while ignoring hard facts and figures just shows that he is not putting anything worthwhile on the table.
If you call the baltic states ‘bankrupt’ please have a look at their debts and compare this to the icelandic debts. Better still, calculate the debt PER HEAD and valuate this against the current ‘value’ of the krona.
Then please tell me who is bankrupt and who is not.
If the great company where Alexander claims to work had to lay off 2/3 of its people it is not exactly showing support for his claim that Iceland is doing so very well compared to other countries.
And if this financial mess was caused (as he claims) by evil lithuanians who were not able to meet their financial obligations then it merely shows that the bussiness strategy of this company has been completely wrong.
And after all, since Alexander also claims that the whole financial world is one big casino where everybody can cheat others and people sometimes win and sometimes lose (right?) his icelandic company should not complain about the lithuanian bussiness partner at all.
@Gus
Last summer a colleague of mine went on holiday to Iceland. Then it was still 90 kr. to the Euro. Iceland was so expensive that he needed to put his tent into the free nature, buy food at Bonus and cook his own meal.
Another colleague who wanted to go to Iceland put his own car on a boat and had it transported to Iceland because he couldn’t afford car rent.
Keep in mind that Holland certainly is not the richest country in the EU, we are somewhere in the middle. Only a few months ago Iceland was practically unaffordablefor us.
When I went to Iceland in nov 2008, with 170 kr to the euro I was able to stay at a 4 * hotel and eat in the best restaurants.
I took a lot of euro’s with me and when I made it clear I could pay in euro’s I got the best possible deals. In fact, I felt like a king.
It felt like in the former USSR where all kinds of people would approach you, begging for hard currency. Even policemen would poslish your shoes if you showed up with REAL currency.
I am not a very perverted person but in exchange for hard currency you could ask ANYTHING from them (I was satisfied with a good meal, a good room and a good rate: I was certainly not ripping people off).
Alexander was quoting the enormous depreciation in the russian ruble against euro and USD in some attempt to prove to icelanders that things can even be worse (silly argument off course) . In his place I would not be so happy about the fact that the 2 currencies in which he has his earnings are sh@t now.
BTW Kestas, I do not think the Litas depreciated so badly as the ruble and the ISK against the EUR?
So who is bankrupt?
@Kestas, Gus
Nice to read some sensible posts in this thread.
As for the rather wild idea to bring in China as a ‘favourable alternative to the EU’ : do you think China will give Iceland money for free??
They are the hardest bussinesspeople on the planet, even the dutch are affraid of their sense of bussiness!
Already on an earlier occasion I was surpised that many icelanders feel so negative about the EU that they would rather submit completely to China, dubious investores or whoever could come up with money for them than to think about the EU.
However, if it is the wish of a majority of icelanders to do so, I will not stop them (who am I?).
The exact size of the debts and the way they will be dealt with is still not clear but it is a fact that Iceland is economically bankrupt and some solution (whatever it might be) has to be found.
Easy has made a point that it seems at the moment Iceland is burning thru the IMF loan, only to support the value of the kr. and to pay its most acute debts. I do believe he has a point with this, since he supports his claim with facts.
Kestas, since in the past I had an estonian girlfriend I visited the baltics (Lithuania too) on several occassions and I found that generally people are very happy with EU membership.
In the baltics things improved very much after they got out of the USSR and once more after they entered the EU.
Thank god the USSR lost the cold war, this improved the lives of millions.
Apart from the fact that economic figures clearly prove this point this girl (who now happens to be amabassador in one of the other EU countries) has also been very clear on this point.
I suggest that anybody who makes deragatory statements about the baltic states visits the estonian border town of Narva and compares it to the russian town on the other side of the border. Narva is mostly inhabited by russians but even they are happy about the fact that they are living in Estonia, since their salaries are higher, paid in time, there is less crime and they can go and work in other EU countries.
As with Alexander, the fact that he is unable (as usual) to come up with other arguments than his own very wonderful, great and conclusive experience, while ignoring hard facts and figures just shows that he is not putting anything worthwhile on the table.
If you call the baltic states ‘bankrupt’ please have a look at their debts and compare this to the icelandic debts. Better still, calculate the debt PER HEAD and valuate this against the current ‘value’ of the krona.
Then please tell me who is bankrupt and who is not.
If the great company where Alexander claims to work had to lay off 2/3 of its people it is not exactly showing support for his claim that Iceland is doing so very well compared to other countries.
And if this financial mess was caused (as he claims) by evil lithuanians who were not able to meet their financial obligations then it merely shows that the bussiness strategy of this company has been completely wrong.
And after all, since Alexander also claims that the whole financial world is one big casino where everybody can cheat others and people sometimes win and sometimes lose (right?) his icelandic company should not complain about the lithuanian bussiness partner at all.
ICELAND IS FUCKED UP AND RUINED. THE WHOLE WORLD, AND SPECIALLY THE EU COUNTRIES, ARE LAUGHING AT THIS FULL-OF-GREED-SOCIETY.
I ENJOY BEING IN ICELAND MORE THAN EVER! IT IS SO CHEAP!! AND HAVING CONVERTED ALL MY MONEY IN EUROS AND HAVING IT OUTSIDE THIS “ARGENTINIAN-LIKE BANK CORRELITO”, IT MAKES ME A RICH PERSON HERE. INSTEAD OF LOOSING THE HALF OF MY MONEY I HAVE EARNED THE DOUBLE!!
HAHAHAHA, ME AND MY FRIEND FROM SWITZERLAND WE WERE JUST ORDERING FOOD AND LAUGHING SO MUCH AS THIS IS SO CHEAP…HAHAHAHA, EVERYWHERE WE GO WE LAUGH, AND WE ALWAYS WANT THE BEST AND MOST EXPENSIVE SERVICES… THIS COUNTRY IS SO CHEAP!!
PLEASE! DON´T GET INTO THE EU! WE WANT THIS COUNTRY TO KEEP IN MISERY, IT IS SO GREAT TO COME HERE AND ENJOY EVERYTHING FOR A LAUGHING PRICE!! ICELANDERS ARE COMMITTED TO BE OUR SERVANTS, PREPARING OUR FOOD, MAKING OUR BEDROOMS AT THE HOTELS, CLEANING UP THE MESS AFTER OUR LUXURIOUS PARTIES…. HAHAHAAH
THUMPS UP TO ALL ICELANDERS WHO WANT THIS COUNTRY TO KEEP IN MISERY AND DON´T GET INTO THE EU!!
YOU ARE MAKING MY LIFE WONDERFUL!!
I THINK I AM GOING TO USE THE NAME “SIR EURO” FROM NOW ON
HAHAHAHA :D HIHIHIH ;-) HEHEHEHE :O)
GO FISHING!! LUNCH TIME IS APPROACHING!!, OH PLEASE, DON´T FORGET THAT BOTTLE OF GOOD WINE!!
You misunderstand Alexander. I’m not trying to convince you of the pros, or to highlight the cons, of joining the EU. Merely to show that Iceland does not currently enjoy all of the items on that list.
I don’t believe that joining the EU will fix Iceland’s fundamental problem (as I see it); that it is too small and easily dominated by a political/business elite. Union with Norway might, but that’s probably not desired by either country. Still, good to see we can find some common ground there :) .
@Bromley86
Will Iceland get them back if joins EU then? I doubt EU can afford to pay for that now.
Name the country investors are pouring money into now. Please…
I’m not asking you who is hiring. But name me a single EU country not firing…Please.
Do you know why Lithuanians got the worst criminal reputation in Iceland? They are rather few here but somehow managed to be mentioned more often than others in the criminal news. Iceland is among few countries in the world without bars on the windows and I hope it will stay this way. Otherwise I’ll have to help local police to keep it ;)
Correct. But still need visas to go to Russia…
well, judging by business cultures of Russia, USA, China and Japan – I like Icelandic one. Sometimes naive but really easy.
Fully agree. When we say “strong” about any EU bank, not Scandinavian only – the HAHAHAHA is the only accurate description these days.
Well, so far the first government in the “West” that felt due to people’s will. Other governments are still able to fool their respective citizens much better. So – HAHA again…
I thought you were more serious person.
Russian bombers have been flying “over” Iceland for decades (Soviet bombers in fact). It became “the news” only because Russia managed to re-start regular patrols of strategic air force. So the reaction was “They are not dead! They are flying!” There is no need to defend Iceland airspace as well Iceland waters – as planes and submarines are on regular patrols over international airspace and waters.
And of course NATO is doing what it is supposed to do – watching and following in the air and in the seas. Regular games.
So please don’t believe everything stupid journalists – like Sackur – are saying about “evil Russian bombers”.
Once – as regular jokes at work I was asked to call Putin and tell him to stop flying over Iceland. then I asked “Guys, look. Now Russian bombers flying at 10,000 meters above you without noticing you. I can call Putin. No problem. But do you really want him to ask “Wait a minute! Iceland? Where is it? Give the map!”” So everybody agreed that better let them fly :))
Thanks. I also think it’s up to Iceland.
And so far you haven’t provide any attractive privelege of EU membership. I think you understand the difference between Lithuania and Iceland. I understand that the Kestas’ list might really good to him. But as I said – Iceland had it all.
I agree, EU already have a bunch of very funny “sailors” on board… Still happy with them? So I would vote for Greenland-Faroe-Norway-Iceland Union of Soviet Republics than EU :)))
I find you inability to answer specific (and simple) questions childish as minimum. And as it looks like a lecture rather then discussion – it’s you problem that you are wrong.
But – don’t be shy to write any comments. Free of speech – remember! And I’m not a little girl. I’ll handle your comments ;)
I asked – what EU could offer that Iceland couldn’t get otherwise? So far – except barking towards Russia (remember – it was YOU who mentioned this EU membership privilege?) – I didn’t hear anything attractive.
Kestas. Maybe you should go to US (not us but U.S.A.) and teach them economy at Harvard Business School?
I might disappoint you but Iceland is not bankrupt. At least now. And for sure it less bankrupt than LLE (aka three Baltic countries). The difference between you and me is very simple. You read news about Iceland and give me advices. I’m living and working here and see the difference between news and reality. You – don’t. You even not Easy – at least he knows that cashiers from EU countries are better than locals.
I think different and will vote out this “new minister” in a couple of months. And I have FOUR votes in my family. You have – NONE :)
Still don’t see the difference?
Iceland has enormous amounts of electricity, water and food. And even tried to be a bank of the EU – but this turned to be not so attractive anymore. :)
And if you think that within EU Iceland would become huge, close, boring country for illegal immigrants – I’m afraid your dreams might brake like a piece of ice hit by horseshoe.
Have you been in China? I don’t think so. Otherwise you knew – it’s impossible to joint China as China doesn’t need it. But they can lend money. Real money. At much more fair terms than G. Brown could ever offered. And I think that Iceland is one of the best trade partners for China – per capita of course.
And don’t worry – China will come to all of us soon :)
Unless you have been recently elected a president of EU – let’s talk about YOUR country. How much did it lend to Iceland?
No problem. As soon as you drop your pathetic and stop talking “on behalf” of all EU. Just be simple countryman. As I said – your personal experience about just one country is much more interesting (and might be attractive) than your advocacy for the whole EU.
Kestas. Could you give me your phone number? So my CEO might use you as reference when talking to our partners in Vilnius – they owe around one million bucks but keep saying “sorry…crisis, collaps etc.” Liars!
Seriously – it was primeraly Russian and Scandinavian money (and Icelandic) with some EU and US funds – that boosted you “economy”. If you don’t know that – see my note about ice.
gus, you’ll get my full support on this. So please stop telling me what to do… this is not job for you, indeed :)
And what concerns the collapse of EU, don’t worry – Russia will ruchnut faster…
Alexander, I find your negative prejudices highly unacceptable. Even childish. I was wrong thinking that you are interested in a constructive discussion. That’s why I have written that firm comment.
I invite you to start opening your eyes. Iceland needs EU more than EU needs Iceland. I think that you understand that perfectly, but just don’t want to admit it.
The first, without EU Iceland have never become so rich as it once was. The reason why it become so rich was borrowing money from US and lending it to EU. So, the market of EU is of vital importance to Iceland, if it wants to be rich. Therefore Iceland thought that it is enough to be a member of EFTA. But it failed to understand that the strong currency is of vital importance, as well.
The second, if Iceland had been a member of EU it wouldn’t have been a bankrupt country like it is now. And that’s where the question of strong currency comes! If Iceland ever wants to be so rich as it once was, it needs a strong currency. Fishing, whaling and aluminium won’t make Iceland so rich as banking have made. And Icelandic goverment understands that perfectly. Here what finance minister thinks:
“Iceland’s new commerce minister Gylfi Magnusson has said adoption of the euro is a more logical step towards restoring financial stability than a currency co-operation with Norway, Reuters reports. In the last few weeks, Norway and Iceland have discussed possible closer currency co-operation.”
Iceland isn’t Norway, and it isn’t Switzerland. The first has enormous amounts of gas/oil and the second is the bank of the world. Without EU Iceland is just a little, far, exotic country for tourists.
Of course, it might join China. When it won’t need to: 1) re-print and translate a mountains of papers 2) and to have huge travel expenses. Cause chinese will come themselves, you will be speaking chinese and once again will be living in USSR…
What concerns not real money which EU and its member states have lent you. Please, give it back then…
And what concerns the collapse of EU, don’t worry – Russia will ?????t faster…
So, I invite you to put that arrogance aside ;)
P.S. Lithuania is also hit by global finance crisis – like all the countries in a world – but thanks to EU the bankruptcy and collapse doesn’t threaten us.
NIELS, I THINK IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO COME HERE AND TRY TO EXPLAIN TO THIS PEOPLE HOW GOOD THE EU COULD BE FOR THIS COUNTRY.
WHAT THEY NEED IS MORE TIME, REAL MISERY IS ABOUT TO BE THE DAILY THING IN THIS COUNTRY. I CAN TELL YOU THAT NEXT YEAR THIS COUNTRY WILL BE CHEAPER TO TRAVEL AND LIVE THAN IT IS NOW IN BULGARIA OR RUMANIA.
THEN YOU WILL SEE ICELANDERS, LEARNING TO BE MODEST: YES SIR, HERE YOU ARE SIR, THANK YOU SIR. GOOD MORNING SIR… AS THEY WILL BEND FOR THOSE FRESH DOLLARS AND EUROS THAT TOURIST WILL CARRY INTO THE COUNTRY. BECAUSE NO ONE WILL BE BRINGING MONEY TO THIS COUNTRY, PEOPLE IS NOT GOING TO MAKE INVESTMENTS HERE ANYMORE…
GET READY ICELANDERS, GO FISHING. WE WILL SIT AT YOUR RESTAURANTS TO EAT IT ALL WITH THE BEST WINES!!
THE OTHER DAY I WENT TO A RESTAURANT. YOU COULD SEE THE ICELANDERS LOOKING AT ME, BOTH, THOSE WHO WERE SERVING ME AND THOSE WHO WERE EATING… I ASKED FOR THE MOST EXPENSIVE DISH WITH THE BEST WINE, WHILE THEY WERE EATING A SANDWICH. AND I HAVE TO TELL THAT SUCH EXPERIENCE WAS TOTAL PLEASURE…
THIS ARTICLE HAS ALREADY GOT 71 COMMENTS. THAT SHOWS THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.
HIGH LEVELS OF GREED, SENSE OF SUPERIORITY AND OTHER NEGATIVE SENTIMENTS ARE STILL IMPORTANT ELEMENTS OF THE ICELANDIC NATIONAL IDENTITY. THE MOST INCREDIBLE THING IS THAT PEOPLE HERE LIKE IT!!
IT IS OKAY TO BE PROUD OF YOUR COUNTRY, TRADITIONS AND IDENTITY. EVERY COUNTRY HAS THOSE THINGS. BUT CONSTRUCTING ONE’S IDENTITY IN THE IDEA OF RACIAL EXCLUSIVITY AND CULTURAL SUPERIORITY ONLY SHOWS HOW IGNORANT AND UNCIVILIZED HUMAN BEINGS AND SOME SOCIETIES CAN GET.
ICELANDIC CULTURE AND SOCIETY IS NOT HOMEGENOUS, ICELANDERS HAVE THE GENETICS OF SCANDINAVIAN, CELTICS FROM IRELAND, SCOTLAND AND NORTHERN SPAIN, THE THOUSANDS OF FRENCH FISHERMEN ON THE EAST, THE II WW SOLDIERS, AND AN INTERRACIAL EXPLOSION DURING THE LAST 30 YEARS ( INTERMARRIAGE BETWEEN ICELANDERS AND OTHER NATIONALITIES, THOUSANDS OF PERSONS FROM MANY COUNTRIES IMMIGRATED, ETC…)
STILL ICELANDERS WOULD DEFEND THAT THEY ARE A PURE NATION OF VIKINGS, AN THAT ICELAND IS “THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD”. THEY CANNOT SAY: ICELAND IS A WONDERFUL COUNTRY, ICELAND IS BEAUTIFUL, I AM PROUD OF BEING ICELANDIC,,, NO NO NO , THEY ALWAYS NEED TO SAY: ICELAND IS BETTER THAN… WE ARE BETTER THAN….
NOW THAT THIS COUNTRY IS ONE OF THE POOREST WESTERN COUNTRIES AND THAT IS ALSO STILL SINKING. NOW THAT ICELANDERS ARE NOT READY OR WILLING TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS SOCIETY IS BUILD ON PREJUDICES, GREED, SENSE OF SUPERIORITY AND ALL THOSE THINGS THAT SHOW LOW LEVEL OF HUMAN SENSE AND CIVILIZATION…
NOW… WE SHOULD LET THIS COUNTRY AND THIS SOCIETY SINK IN ITS OWN IGNORANCE, STUPIDITY AND NARCISCISTIC IDENTITY OF SUPERIORITY.
I DON´T VOTE ICELANDERS TO BE A PART OF THE EU, BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO DO SO MUCH FOR THIS COUNTRY AND TAKE IT OUT OF THE MISERY THEY ARE AND THEY ARE NOT EVEN GOING TO SAY THANKS!
ICELAND REALLY DESERVES TO BE WHERE IT IS. AND ICELANDERS REALLY NEED TO GET TO KNOW WHAT THE BOTTOM AND MISERY MEANS. IT WILL MAKE THEM BE BETTER HUMAN BEINGS. BUT THE PROCESS IS GOING ON AND THEY ARE STILL SO IGNORANT. SO WHAT THEY NEED IS MORE TIME AND MORE OF BEING IN THEIR OWN SHIT… I HOPE THIS PEOPLE WILL SOMEDAY HAVE LESS EGO-CENTRISM. I HAVE OBSERVED A LOT OF EGOCENTRISM IN ICELANDERS IN GENERAL AND THIS SOCIETY.
THAT SENSE OF SUPERIORITY, THOSE EYES LOOKING AT FOREIGNERS AS IF THEY WERE FROM ANOTHER PLANET. THOSE CLOSE MINDS THAT LOOK AT THE REST OF THE WORLD AS IF WE WERE MONKEYS.. REALLY… ALL THAT NEEDS TO DISAPPEAR FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD TO HAVE A GOOD CONCEPT OF THIS SOCIETY.
BUT WHAT ICELAND HAS SHOWN IS THAT THIS COUNTRY WAS A COUNTRY GOVERNED BY GREED, EGOISM AND IGNORANCE. A COUNTRY MAKING PUBLICITY ALL AROUND THE WORLD OF BEING RICH AND EXCLUSIVE.
DO YOU REALLY KNOW HOW ICELANDERS FELT YEARS AGO WHEN THEY TRAVELLED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?? AND DO YOU KNO HOW DO THEY FEEL NOW?? THEIR DIGNITY IS TOTALLY BY THE FLOORS, BECAUSE NOW, THAT THEY DON’T HAVE ANY REASON FOR CALLING THEMSELVES SUPERIOR, NOW THAT THEY LIVE ON AN INTERNATIONAL RESCUE PROGRAM,, NOW.. THEY ARE SEEING WHAT THEY REALLY ARE.
ICELANDERS SHOULD BE MORE MODEST AND OPEN TO LEARN FROM OTHER PEOPLE AND CULTURES, AS OPEN AS ONE POSSIBLE CAN BE!!
ICELANDERS NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS SOCIETY HAS MORE TO DO THAN WITH THE FIRST VIKING SETTLERS. ICELANDERS NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS TRADITIONALLY A MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY.
BUT NO, WHAT THEY TEACH IN THE SCHOOLS IS ALL ABOUT THE VIKINGS. THE REST OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY HAS NOT A PLACE IN THIS COUNTRIES CULTURE. AND THEN YOU THINK THIS IS A MODERN EVOLUTIONATED COUNTRY? WITH SO MUCH IGNORANCE, PREJUDICES AND STUPIDITY..
I SAY NO TO ICELAND IN THE EU.
I WOULD ADMIT ICELAND IN THE EU ONLY WHEN THIS COUNTRY’S SOCIETY HAS FULFILLED A MINIMUM OF REQUIREMENTS CONCERNING DEMOCRACY AND OTHER MATTERS LIGATED TO THE RESPECT OF THE MAIN HUMAN RIGHTS.
LETS ICELAND SINK WITH ITS “PERFECT” GREED AND MISERY.
COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN TOO GOOD HELPING THIS HEARTLESS SOCIETY, WE SHOULD HAVE LET THEM GET TO THE BOTTOM. THAT IS WHAT THEY REALLY DESERVE!! WE HAVE HELPED THEM AND SEE, STILL THEY HAVENT LEARNT THE BASICS..
EU COUNTRIES SHOULD NOT SHOW ANY MERCY NOR COMPASSION FOR THIS EGOIST SOCIETY. AND THEY WOULD HAVE TO COME TO EU BEGGING ON THEIR KNEES FOR A SECOND CHANCE…
@ISK
So when you loose a game you just dont accept it because you are very competitive?
well, thats childish and fool, unfortunatelly it’s clear that you know notheing about economy exept what you watch on the news and book theory, but you should know that in the practice is very different, I will deffenetly not convince you, and thats not my goal, and you wont convince me, lets just wait and see, and we are talking about weeks, months, what we want is not always what we get, of course we want this nation to be rich, and wealthy and forget about everything that happened, and take a magic wound and erase averything and belive that this was just a bad dream, but the reallity is very different, so lets not argue about this, because there is a natural consecuense to everything and whatever hapens, we wont be the exeption. When you loose something the sooner you accept the situation, the sooner the recovery can start, and the recovery can start with realistic grounds not with fantsies and superiority dreams. Iceland WILL join the EU not because we want it or we don’t, just because its going to happen, me personaly I woulden’t like it, but again, is not me or you.
@Easy
I would not like to be in the a fight or war trenches with you on my side , the first sign of trouble and you whimper “help, save me!”
I have never known such a defeated beaten down worm as you.
P.S what do you export?
Bad news?
Or could be TOWELS ready to throw in!
if iceland joins UE dont worry its vote will be worth LESS than 0. Iceland HAS TO join UE not because we want or Ue wants, just because it HAS TO it is not a choise for icelanders anymore.
@Bromley,
You are giving a polite and completely correct reply to Alexander . The things you mention are well known to any person with a certain degree of education and intellectual ability.
However I think it is not worth the effort since Alexander will only reply with denials, silly wisecracks and poor attempts at being witty/funny,not being backed up by any factual knowledge or arguments.
In addition to point 3 I would like to mention that , while Iceland has an admirably low rate of violent crime/theft/burglary/robbery, this cannot be said about ECONOMIC crimes. In this field the ‘outbound vikings’ have been world-champions.
@Alexander
Even though I do not intend to make any serious answer to your postings (since I do not take them seriously; in fact you write yourself that they should not be taken seriously) I will give an answer to your question where the money is coming from that is flowing back to dutch Icesave victims:
from Iceland, from YOU.
While you are busy jumping around and ranting like “HAHAHAHA COME AND GET THE MONEY THAT IS YOURS AND NOW MINE HAHAHAHAHA”
The real world has moved on and the money is flowing back to its rightful owners, WITH interest :-)
Alexander, Iceland may have *had* all the items in that list. It doesn’t anymore:
1. The only foreign investment is that trapped in the country.
2. Unemployment is shooting up.
3. I’d expect crime to be better in Iceland whether it was in the EU or not and whether it’s in a recession or not. Population density (or lack of) is your friend.
4. Not sure, but you probably have this as part of the EEA.
5. You’re kidding, right? Grimsson might have been extoling the business culture pre-crash, but it’s shaken your country to its knees.
6. Hahahaha.
7. Ditto, and see (5).
8. Well the EU would have more clout than Iceland, for what that’s worth. Might help you defend your airspace from all those Russian bombers, although I’m not sure why NATO wasn’t doing that in the first place :) .
If Iceland doesn’t join, then no problem. I don’t see why you can take umbradge at what Kestas said about who begs who – ultimately he’s right. The EU will barely notice whether Iceland joins or not, whereas it’ll be a big deal in Iceland itself.
Of course, as you say, it’s probably not something we’ll have to worry about. The initial pro-EU feelings have probably leached away. I myself am glad for exactly the reason you mention – it seems insane to me that another sailor (and this one “younger” than even Malta) might get a vote.
Dear Kestas.
Please don’t place the horse in front of the wagon.
Iceland is not asking YOU anything! Sorry, you are lost in your dreams ;)
And you (and your opinion of how important you are) is one more proof that Iceland doesn’t need anything from EU. At least none from your list
Numbers 1-7 have been here when Great Lithuania was begging to join EU. Number 8 is not needed at all as Iceland is not a small dog barking from behind the safety of EU fence ;)
So once again – what EU can offer that Iceland doesn’t have?
Except:
1. huge expenses (for the small country) to re-print and translate a mountains of papers (aka laws and regulations)
2. huge travel expenses to send people back and force between Reykjavik and …sorry I forgot the name of the EU capital :(
3. huge travel expenses to go around all EU members to beg for their “approvals” and “permissions”
WHAT ELSE is good in EU for Iceland?
Money? Ha-ha two times. EU has no money to save Lithuania in the first place (and you forgot to tell us how good things are there now!). And as I said if Iceland needs real cash – better to ask China. At least they don’t care whether dots and commas in our laws meet requirements of ISO 9000 standards.
I also don’t remember when Ukraina applied for EU membership.
And frankly – I have many reason to think that EU won’t survive this storm. At least in its current form. So it would be silly for Iceland to get on board of – yes big, yes fresh painted – but poorly design ship with so different crew members like Germany and Romania, for instance. And the ship without a captain! The ship when decision are made by vote and any single “sailor” – even most youngest one – might veto this decision. Any Icelandic fishermen (and even farmer) would tell you that such ship is a joke and will end up on reefs.
PS. Funny joke about space program indeed.
@Kestas
Despite what you may pick up from your circle of friends the media or the vibe on this forum.
I can assure you the vast majority of Icelandic citizens still do NOT want to join the EU.
This will become clear if the citizens vote in a referendum for/against EU membership.
I know when people have posted against Iceland EU membership before, the usual suspects say “don’t be negative about EU , look what they have done for Spain, Portugal & eastern european countries ..etc..blah,blah,blah ”
SO WHAT!!!
Maybe when Iceland remains NON-EU after a referendum the minority of PRO EU supporters can then migrate to the EU country of their choice!
Yeah, I heard that Icelandic Space Programme was quite promising (http://newiceland.net/?id=7):
“The ambitious Icelandic space program has been put on hold – for time being – because of the unstable economy in our „great, pure and beautiful country“, as stated in a press release. All fundings have stopped and the highly skilled team of scientists working on the program has been transferred to other, more important, government projects – mainly express whaling and sheep-herding. Thus the high hopes of our government, for an Icelandic sheep to reach earth’s orbit before the year 2219, are now crushed.” :D
I think the discussion is heading towards wrong direction. Not the EU has to convince and beg for Iceland to join it, but Iceland has to beg and convince EU to accept it. So, tell us why we have to accept Iceland into EU, while there are a full line-up of countries just waiting for a chance. The countries which sincerely are trying to become the members – not like onetime Iceland which all the time was such an arrogant towards us and just when the things went bad have changed the mind. Why the EU has to give Iceland a chance when there are such strategic and important countries like Turkey, Serbia and Ukraine waiting for a chance? Those countries really are of strategical importance to EU. Why EU has to pay-off the Icelandic debt? :)
No need to publish this.
And thanks to moderators ;)
Kestas said:
“I have one off-topic question. Are there any plans in Iceland to join ESA (European Space Agency)? :)”
No. Iceland is developing its own space program. See the link below. First space “Longship” on the launch pad ;)
http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/ruslendingar/view/165293/
Kestas, thanks for answer. But let me make some comments ;)
“And you better tell us how good things are in your place (and EU member state). Then we’ll discuss if Iceland should bother to get into it ;)
This would be much more productive for the discussion.”
For my country – Lithuania – the membership in EU was very positive.
**Well, I asked how things are now. Honestly. Cause from what I know – they are bad. Really bad. But again – it’s better for Niels to hear the fact from first-hand person. Otherwise he will claim that either I’m lying or my Lithuanian contacts here are lying…
Here are the biggest benefits:
1) More foreign investment
2) Less unemployment
3) Less crime
4) Free movement of people both in Europe and the world. In Europe because of Schengen agreement; after that USA, Canada, Australia, Brazil etc. abolished visas for us, as well.
5) Better business culture.
6) Strong Scandinavian banks.
7) Better political culture.
8) Bigger political influence on international stage. Especially, when dealing with Russia :)
**Except number 8 – Iceland had it all already. Without EU membership. And Iceland doesn’t need number 8 as it always had good relations with CCCP/Russia.
So – no gain so far ;)
The biggest losses because of membership in EU:
1) The closer of our nuclear plant.
2) Emigration.
**Nuclear plant case is really funny. To close existing one to built another one. Looks like money laundering for me. Sorry.
Emigration – this is really surprising. If everything is getting so better… But on the other hand people are free to choose the place to live so I don’t understand why you place it into loss line as you mention “free movement” in your gain line number 4. I think that emigration is just a part of free movement. Unless you mean that best people are living country…but this happens everywhere.
What concers the Iceland’s membership in the Union, I understand that there are two things which worry you most – fishing and sovereignty. I can’t tell you a lot about fishing changes which occured after the membership cause in Lithuania it isn’t a big business but I can tell you that for port business it was very positive.
**Could you tell more what Lithuanian ports are moving exactly? And what are ports moving now they didn’t move before EU membership? Cause except being transit ports to/from Russia – I don’t know other business there. But I’m really not an expert at all. Last time I was in Shaulyai 20 years ago.
Maybe Niels can tell you more about fishing in the Union cause he is from a big fishing country – Holland :)
**Duch can’t beat Iceland in fishing. Actually no one can. Per capita. And I see no way this might be better for Iceland in EU. I understand that fishermen from other countries would be glad to get better treatment in Icelandic water. I have no problems with that except one small note – they have had to come here 1000 years ago :)
What concers sovereignty loss, I think an expression of sovereignty pooling rather than a loss is much more accurate. Cause all EU members pool their sovereignty together in order to get a bigger value. It is like some kind of a family :) We all live together, work together and enjoy it together – and are stronger together :)
**So far – so good here. Iceland is NATO member and protected as such. What kind of value will it get as EU member? Lithuania can veto its whales hunt? Thanks. Or Iceland will have to pay contribution to EU bureaucrat mechanism? We have more than enough of our own here (for 300.000 people). What Iceland can or can not do without EU? It’s a member state of UN etc. Or will it make any difference for Iceland in its relations with USA, China, Japan, Russia? Not at all. As INDEPENDENT country Iceland choose whatever it needs to do with these countries. Should I refresh you the Poland “chicken veto” over EU-Russia talks? Why should Iceland to join such a “family”?
I really don’t understand.
I agree with you that for Lithuania it was good to go under the EU/NATO roof – to feel safe when teasing Russia. But this is irrelevant for Iceland. And the only argument I’ve heard from those Icelanders who support the EU idea – “EU will hjalp us”. It’s only about “hjalp us” – like we are kids here and are not capable mentally or physically to do things. But you know what? As soon as people of any country start screaming “plizz kam and hjalp us” – such country is doomed! But I don’t think Icelanders are ready to go to trash. At least all Icelanders I know – none is begging for hjalp.
So far Iceland was first to hit the shit … and first to shake off the government. So I think Iceland has good chances to be the first to get out of shit as well :)
And we must do it anyway as waiting for EU membership is not an option – toooo long.
And one more note. About “kind EU investors”. My company invested huge money into joint company in Lithuania. And many Icelandic companies did (as part of Nordic “help”). And this explains most of “economic boom” over there (I know that – as I was working on many projects). It’s clear now that these money were dumped. If used here – my company could stay afloat for a years or so (just by doing nothing) but instead had to slice 2/3 of people here to be able to pay back loans that were supposed to be paid by our “partners” over there.
Do you think EU would help us in this case?
PS. This was really nice and says a lot:
“8) Bigger political influence on international stage. Especially, when dealing with Russia :)”
PS-2.Read my text over… It sounds like I’m Icelandic nationalist :))) Really funny – for the born in the USSR person.
I have one off-topic question. Are there any plans in Iceland to join ESA (European Space Agency)? :) The reason why I ask this – Iceland is the only west European country not being a member of ESA. Even Norway & Switzerland are members :)
“And you better tell us how good things are in your place (and EU member state). Then we’ll discuss if Iceland should bother to get into it ;)
This would be much more productive for the discussion.”
Alexander, it is really nice to find that you are open minded :)
For my country – Lithuania – the membership in EU was very positive. Here are the biggest benefits:
1) More foreign investment
2) Less unemployment
3) Less crime
4) Free movement of people both in Europe and the world. In Europe because of Schengen agreement; after that USA, Canada, Australia, Brazil etc. abolished visas for us, as well.
5) Better business culture.
6) Strong Scandinavian banks.
7) Better political culture.
8) Bigger political influence on international stage. Especially, when dealing with Russia :)
The biggest losses because of membership in EU:
1) The closer of our nuclear plant.
2) Emigration.
But those two losses provided us with new opportunities:
1) Because of the closer of our nuclear plant, the goverment is encouraged to seek for alternative ways of providing the country with an energy. Therefore we are creating a single Baltic market of energy and later on integrating it into single Scandinavian market of energy – the NORD POOL. The result will be a single energy market of Norther Europe (Scandinavia + Baltics) + Poland. We also are building a new regional nuclear power plant.
2) The goverment and business community have realised that they have to invest more into people.
What concers the Iceland’s membership in the Union, I understand that there are two things which worry you most – fishing and sovereignty. I can’t tell you a lot about fishing changes which occured after the membership cause in Lithuania it isn’t a big business but I can tell you that for port business it was very positive. Maybe Niels can tell you more about fishing in the Union cause he is from a big fishing country – Holland :)
What concers sovereignty loss, I think an expression of sovereignty pooling rather than a loss is much more accurate. Cause all EU members pool their sovereignty together in order to get a bigger value. It is like some kind of a family :) We all live together, work together and enjoy it together – and are stronger together :)
@Terry
I can only speak for myself but I do not take any offence in your post.
AFAIK the term “Iceland , the northern Zim’ was introduced by an icelandic author. There has been a link on this forum to it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iris-lee/iceland—-the-nordic-zim_b_155375.html
When I wrote that you were only joking by comparing Mugabe’s remarks to the attitude of Oddsson I did not intend that I regard you as the person who ‘invented’ this comparison which makes just as little sense as comparing the EU to the USSR.
Terry, you are ok and your sense of humour is better than mine. To me it is not necessary for you to justify yourself.
Kestas, I’ve been waiting for you :)
The thing is – I see no reason to add more off-topic to the discussion than there are already. So I just skip Niels list of USSR sins :)
And it’s a common practice in Internet to consider statements of others as true ones. I didn’t challenge your or Niels experience in USSR-EU matters. Neither asking for your birth certificate, right?
What I’m saying is – you and Niels has LESS experience with USSR and Iceland than I do. And this simple fact is bothering Niels to the core. And I don’t understand why. I’m not pretending I know anything about Holland – I was there once and only in one place – Amsterdam. And I like the place and understand why Peter I liked it so much and copied it in Sankt-Peterburg. But that’s all. Whether Holland is in good shape or can feed itself – I have no idea.
And I don’t ask you to take me seriously or whatever. There are other readers and they will make their mind by themselves.
And you better tell us how good things are in your place (and EU member state). Then we’ll discuss if Iceland should bother to get into it ;)
This would be much more productive for the discussion.
Alexander, you know it is very strange to me that after claiming of having such a big experience with USSR/EU you can’t even provide a single argument to back your claims of EU as USSR.
Here is your words about your experience:
– “Sorry, Neils, but I experienced it much longer than you and Kestas combined (or multiplied).”
And here is your answer to Niels when he asks for arguments:
– “Sorry again but this are The Times After Google and you have to either believe or not me. I’m not a suspect neither you are an investigator ;)
Or do you want me to publish my birth certificate?”
Sorry, you can’t be taken seriously…
Oops…problems with encoding.
Ok, instead of ?????? you should read, Niels:
“Mne vse ravno chto dumaet obo mne obizheniy csarskoy Rossiey malchik” :)
Translation for moderator: “I don’t care what the boy – offended by Csarist Russia – thinks about me”
PS. Please Niels, stop your off topics. Better share you knowledge about Iceland. The one you gained in supermarket. BTW what store was that – Bonus, Hagkaup?
Niels
??? ??? ?????, ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????????? ??????? ;)
And I also see no point to argue with a person whose education starts with http://en.wikipedia.org. Sorry
PS. Solzhenitsin was a lier. A talented one…Unfortunately…
@Alexander
Gee, arguing isn’t your strongest point is it? Same goes for logical thinking and sense of humour.
basically you take every single line from my post adding to it: I do not agree not agreee not agreeeeee without any argumentation.
Fisy comes up with arguments when he disagrees with me and i respect that. However you have not reached this level yet.
8 year old children argue like you do. I do not wish to give it too much time since idiocy should not be encouraged but let me remark the following:
+++++++++
– Sorry again but this are The Times After Google and you have to either believe or not me. I’m not a suspect neither you are an investigator ;)
Or do you want me to publish my birth certificate?
++++++++++
If you are unable to give a halfway decent reply please do not waste time on this. I ask you a question, I ask you on which you are basing your assumption and you reply like a child. I cannot take you seriously.
++++++++++
”Do you want to deny that the USSR disrespected human rights?” Yes I do. It might sound strange but not more than your “black or white only” statement. It’s I little bit more complicated than you think. Have you heard about the last “freedom of speech” row between Holland and UK? ;)
”Do you want to deny that the USSR occupied most of its member states with military force?” Yes I do. Unless you mean something else – like Warsaw pact members – the member states of USSR – all 15 of them were part of czarist Russia before. Like Georgia or Finland ;)
++++++++++
???????!!!
it is quite shameful towards the millions of victims of communism….
Probably you also deny that the holocaust happened.
You are just an extremely stupid and uneducated person, how about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupations_of_Latvia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Georgia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
O and if you claim to be such an expert on Russia, please read the works of one of the great russian writers Solzjenitzin with his experiences with human rights in the USSR.
THESE ARE FACTS
THINGS THAT YOU CANNOT COME UP WITH!!!
I am not obsessed with the tramways of Odessa. Probably the idea that i came up with another argument surprises you since you are not able to do so.
O and they do make nice wallpaper.
Oi, you posted ONE SINGLE link to icelandic statistics: thank you very much ….THE FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS (THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT) STOP IN THE YEAR 2006!!!
http://www.statice.is/Statistics/Enterprises-and-turnover/Financial-accounts
So you manage to use lots of space, come up with one ‘argument’….and it does not make any sense at all!! Congrats ?????. thx for your great contribution to this forum.
?????! ?? ? ????!
And please do not lecture me about soviet geograpy. I was talking about Tallinn and Tblilissi because thay make a nicer alliteration than Murmansk and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky
btw:
Murmansk was not the most northern point in the USSR
Kaliningrad was not the most western point in the USSR
Tbilissi was most certainly not the most southern point in the USSR
so stop posing and lecturing check your facts and get real.
++++++++
It is me who lived in USSR and in Iceland, not you. As such I would like to see your facts that support your “I-know-all” statements. Not vice versa
++++++++
So basically you say you know everything and you do not need to prove this. I already stopped taking you seriously as a poster after the first lines of your reply. Basically you are confirming that your reasoning does not go above that of a poorly educated child.
You know what Alexander? ? ?????, ?? ?? ???????.
I do not believe you are a russian at all! Otherwise you would not be so vague about yourself and unable to come up with any facts.
I know plenty of russians and they are people with an education, with an ability to think logically and in a structured manner. They do not reason and behave like children and they also know that the USSR was not exactly a model of democracy and peacefulness while they do not flatly deny all the wrongdoings of the USSR.
+++++++++++
This crisis is very good thing for the country and its people. It’s really a time to wake up otherwise they’ve started to relax so much that it looks like they were dead :)
++++++++++
Bravo! What a great “joke”. I am sure that all icelanders who lost their job, their prosperity , finding it extremely difficult to continue their life (I very much sympathize with them) will very much appreciate this brilliant remark.
+++++++++++
Q:what is the basis of the enormous economic success of comecon?
A: east german flexibility, polish organization, russian efficiency, czech heroism, the hungarian language, romanian honesty and the bulgarian sense of independence.”
You nailed it Niels!
Now EU got them all :)
+++++++++++++
So Russia is also in the EU??
?????? !!
I rest my case….
Alexander, thanks for your great contributions to icenews. i will not waste any more energy on your posts since they are not worth it.
“Q:what is the basis of the enormous economic success of comecon?
A: east german flexibility, polish organization, russian efficiency, czech heroism, the hungarian language, romanian honesty and the bulgarian sense of independence.”
You nailed it Niels!
Now EU got them all :)
”First of all my name is Niels and NOT Neils.”
Sorry, I’m always mixing I and E :(
BTW Iceland and Icelanders start with capital “I”
“However it would be nice if you could back up your statements with facts in stead of your personal experience which I cannot verify, how extensive it might be:”
– Sorry again but this are The Times After Google and you have to either believe or not me. I’m not a suspect neither you are an investigator ;)
Or do you want me to publish my birth certificate?
“As for the USSR defaulting obligations: I am talking about obligations of Czarist Russia which were not honoured by the USSR after the revolution.”
And I was talking about the time of the first settlers who were able to feed themselves till these days…
But well…if you want to talk about that OLD obligations – then first of all we’ll have to get back to that situation. I mean when Finland, Poland, Baltic countries were part of Czarist Russia. But I have strong feelings they don’t want to… So I ‘m suggesting to talk about last 20 years.
”Continuing about facts: do you really think that it makes any sense to compare the USSR with the EU?”
Yes I do. We can always compare rock with rocks and other substances. This gives better understanding of the objects qualities.
”Do you want to deny that the USSR disrespected human rights?” Yes I do. It might sound strange but not more than your “black or white only” statement. It’s I little bit more complicated than you think. Have you heard about the last “freedom of speech” row between Holland and UK? ;)
”Do you want to deny that the USSR occupied most of its member states with military force?” Yes I do. Unless you mean something else – like Warsaw pact members – the member states of USSR – all 15 of them were part of czarist Russia before. Like Georgia or Finland ;)
I decided to skip the rest of your “denial list” as it has little to do with EU-Iceland matter and therefor is off-topic. And looks like you are somewhat obsessed with this Tramvay company in Odessa…
“(I could continue this list for quite a while but i hope you get the point) “
Please stop and let’s go back to Iceland.
“And do you honestly want to claim that the EU is a similar ‘institution???”
In many respects it’s very similar. Mainly because it’s ruled by the bunch of people who is not responsible for their actions and whose actions are not based on interests of people they “represent”.
“icelanders are free to decide what they want and the EU will respect this decision, it is as simple as that”
Icelanders won’t cry if EU does or doesn’t respect their decision. Iceland is not begging for anything. I don’t mean some politicians who doesn’t have any other political idea to attract attention. And I don’t mean those Icelanders who prefer to be fed up with BS.
“I stand by my remark that it is equally ridiculous to compare iceland to Zim as it is to compare the EU to the USSR.”
Well, we have our own David Mugabe here : ))))
“your characterization of the USSR as a piece of rock is not correct either. if there was one thing typical of life in the soviet union (from Tallinn to Tblissi) it was that NO RULES applied,”
Sorry but your measurement is not correct. It should be:
From Murmansk to Tbilisi (from north to south) and from Kaliningrad to Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (from west to east). But person who measure USSR from Tallinn to Tbilisi…hm? I see no point to discuss Rules of the place if you don’t have a correct ruler : )
“In fact, the EU is probably better at enforcing rules.”
In enforcing rules USSR was better than EU in same way as rock is harder than BS.
“You are also claiming that Iceland could very well survive by itself.”
Yes I am. I also want to stress that Iceland doesn’t have to survive by itself, you know. There are other places in the world than EU;) Like USSR/Russia, Japan, China. And last two are very active in Iceland.
“Iceland just cannot get out of this crisis by itself.
I am not the only one with this opinion: please read the opinions of at least 90 % of posters on this forum.”
Thanks, Niels, for your sovet (= advice). Do you know why Soviet Union got its name? From the word SOVET. So please keep your sovet for yourself and let Icelanders decide whether to get out of it by ourselves or beg for hjalp.
”and if this still is your opinion, then please back it up with some facts and figures, otherwise it is just jaw-flapping.”
Just go to http://www.statice.is/ But be careful not to drop your jaws ;)
“And about Iceland feeding itself (the point i made in my previous post): when I visited an icelandic supermarket”
That’s a nice method for fact-checking … indeed. Well when I visited Amsterdam I found myself on the Red Lights street – right in the heart of the town. Should I continue with my conclusions about Holland? BTW have you visited a bar?
“If a diet of fish, lamb, carrots and cuccumbers is all right with you then yes, Iceland is able to feed itself.”
You forgot all kinds of diary products, poultry, beef, potatoes etc. And believe me – I could stay with lambalundir forever!
“I do not take any offense if a person disagrees with me (otherwise I wouldn’t have a life) but you would be more convincing if you would be able to back up your statements with some facts.”
It is me who lived in USSR and in Iceland, not you. As such I would like to see your facts that support your “I-know-all” statements. Not vice versa.
Taking into account my experience with collapse of such a rock like USSR then a couple of crisis in Russia I can tell you for sure – Iceland will get out of this s…torm. This crisis is very good thing for the country and its people. It’s really a time to wake up otherwise they’ve started to relax so much that it looks like they were dead :)
Hi Fisy and Niels
I would like to provide a little clarification – re Zimbabwe
In the thread – David Oddssson Will Not Quit.
https://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/02/09/david-oddsson-just-will-not-quit/
The post before mine -from Easy, was a parody of Oddsson, where he focussed on the element of power complex. Easy said –
“remember you belonge to me. I go if I want and when I want. And if I go I take My contry with me. you have to remember that this contry is MINE.”
I picked up on this aspect (and so did Easy in his subsequent post) which somewhat reminded me of recent comments by Mugabe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7791574.stm
“President Robert Mugabe has said that “Zimbabwe is mine and rejected calls from some African leaders to step down. I will never, never, never surrender,”
My satirical comment was a comparison between Oddsson and Mugabe – in terms of their resistance to removal – and not a comparison between Iceland and Zimbabwe. I would have hoped someone looking at the BBC link would have realised that.
Fisy, I understand that people are dying in Zimbabwe. Indeed Zimbabwe is a far bigger issue in the UK than the affairs of Iceland.
In WW2 satirical songs relating to Hitler and his Generals were not uncommon in the UK – and they did some pretty unpleasant things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Has_Only_Got_One_Ball
@Peter, Germany
Thanks for your support.You are absolutely right: in the EU, even though it has its flaws, there is synergy: the different countries in it are really able to join forces and create things of which even big and powerful members like Germany alone would not be capable: just look at the airbus industry, which has really been able to challenge Boeing (think of the possibilities for icelandic aluminium) . I am also thinking of the euro and the european airspace program.
Only a few decades ago Germany and France considered each other ‘eternal enemies’ . Now they are successfully co-operating in all these fields.
In Holland there used to be very negative feelings towards Germany because of the war but the intensive co-operation, economic integration and intense contacts between citizens of both countries have removed most of these feelings. Even though Germany is much bigger and has more votes in the european parliament we never had any reason to feel bullied by them.
Even if the EU would not have been succesful economically it has still would have succeeded in making an enormous improvement in the relations between its member states.
In Comecon there was no synergy at all: just misery and exploitation.
If i can remember it correctly there was some joke about it which I heard in Hungary:
Q:what is the basis of the enormous economic success of comecon?
A: east german flexibility, polish organization, russian efficiency, czech heroism, the hungarian language, romanian honesty and the bulgarian sense of independence.
And another thing:
France, Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Germany, Sweden &c. – these are all important countries of course. But the fact that they are united in the EU gives them much more clout internationally which is quite important nowadays.
I absolutely agree with Niels’ compelling remarks. It’s absurd and also disrespectful towards the victims of Communist rule in the USSR to liken the USSR with the EU.
The EU is far from perfect and it’s good that people start to thing about the question how much power the EU really needs, but still: I do not think that there is a single member state in the EU that has not gained a lot from the EU. And that is not only something that concerns the economy. One of the most admirable things that the EU brought about is that citizens in the EU can live and work wherever they want. We are talking here about Europe – a continent that has seen dozens of brutal and hellish wars in the past centuries.
@Alexander
First of all my name is Niels and NOT Neils.
It is good to see that people come up with all kinds of different opinions.
However it would be nice if you could back up your statements with facts in stead of your personal experience which I cannot verify, how extensive it might be:
As for the USSR defaulting obligations: I am talking about obligations of Czarist Russia which were not honoured by the USSR after the revolution.
To give you a CONCRETE example: my family had shares in the TRAMWAYS of Odessa which had NO value at all after the revolution. The USSR nationalized them and did not care at all about shareholders.
if you go to antique shops you can find extensive collections of such shares which make a nice decoration but do not have any value (in fact i used them as wallpaper in my first flat) . Russia has also refused to pay any compensation for such shares (and honestly, I do not blame Russia for that but it just proves that your remark is incorrect) .
Other obligations not honoured by the USSR refer to copy rights: for instance western books that passed the soviet censor were printed all around the USSR without paying any copyright to the author, same with technology that was stolen in the west.
Continuing about facts: do you really think that it makes any sense to compare the USSR with the EU??
Do you want to deny that the USSR disrespected human rights?
Do you want to deny that the USSR occupied most of its member states with military force?
Do you want to deny that the USSR deported millions of people from these occupied states to the GULAG?
Do you want to deny that the USSR locked up millions of people in horrible prisons without giving them a fair trial?
Do you want to deny that the USSR did not give its people access to independent courts of law?
Do you want to deny that the USSR nationalized the lands of farmers, the shops of ordinary people and treated the former owners as ‘enemies of the people’?
Do you want to deny that the USSR imprisoned people who dared to voice an independant opinion/labeleled them insane or even had them executed?
(I could continue this list for quite a while but i hope you get the point)
And do you honestly want to claim that the EU is a similar ‘institution???
COME ON!
the EU is far from perfect, I will be the first to acknowledge that, but it is not a dictatorial institution and in no way compares to the USSR.
icelanders are free to decide what they want and the EU will respect this decision, it is as simple as that.
I do not think the EU will invade iceland, forbid all forms of icelandic national culture, outlaw the icelandic flag and national anthem, nationalize all bussiness and land and deport 40.000 icelanders to greenland, do you?
I stand by my remark that it is equally ridiculous to compare iceland to Zim as it is to compare the EU to the USSR.
your characterization of the USSR as a piece of rock is not correct either. if there was one thing typical of life in the soviet union (from Tallinn to Tblissi) it was that NO RULES applied, as long as you had the right ‘connections’. In fact, the authorities had alot of trouble to enforce the many rules that ‘the system’ imposed and this enforcing took place in a very inaccurate manner. In fact, the EU is probably better at enforcing rules .
You are also claiming that Iceland could very well survive by itself. first of all, in the present situation, this is not the case: something NEEDS to be done or this society is threatened with collapse. Whatever it might be: union with Norway ,or entering the EU, it does not matter, Iceland just cannot get out of this crisis by itself.
I am not the only one with this opinion: please read the opinions of at least 90 % of posters on this forum.
and if this still is your opinion, then please back it up with some facts and figures, otherwise it is just jaw-flapping.
And about Iceland feeding itself (the point i made in my previous post): when I visited an icelandic supermarket I noticed that 99,9 % of all goods were imported (mostly from the EU and very many from Holland/Belgium) . the only icelandic products I found were some overpriced pieces of dried fish (my cats liked them), lamb and some vegetables.
If a diet of fish, lamb, carrots and cuccumbers is all right with you then yes, Iceland is able to feed itself.
I do not take any offense if a person disagrees with me (otherwise I wouldn’t have a life) but you would be more convincing if you would be able to back up your statements with some facts.
Neils wrote:
“In all honesty, have you ever been to the former USSR, or to the Comecon countries when they were still under soviet control?
This comparison is absolutely incorrect as anybody who experienced it can testify (please read the post of Kestas) .”
Sorry, Neils, but I experienced it much longer than you and Kestas combined (or multiplied).
And I can testify that Fisy is much more correct than you.
Well, to be exact if we compare USSR and EU, I would use such samples as piece of rock and piece of bullshit (respectively).
Taking into account my experience with Iceland I fully agree with Fisy – Iceland doesn’t need to be a member of EU. At all.
Side note 2 Neils.
Your statement
“The communists in Russia could default on all obligations but the USSR was enormous and could (more or less) feed itself.
Iceland could not.” was WRONG.
CCCP and Russia paid all its international obligations to the “west”.
And Iceland had been, is and will be feeding itself for sure. Your statement just showed that you know less FACTS than you think you do.
PS. Nothing personal towards you or Kestas – just reminding you don’t have exclusive knowledge over EU-Iceland-CCCP affairs ;)
Niels, a great piece of thought! ;)
@Fisy
In another thread you were irritated about a comparison between Iceland and Zimbabwe, even though Terry was only joking.
I agree that it is not correct to compare Iceland to Zim but…
Here you are making exactly the same mistake by coming up with something that is equally unjust by comparing the EU with USSR/Comecon.
Just have a look at the reaction of Kestas: he is completely right: apart from the fact that comecon was a dictatorship the USSR occupied countries by force: it took them by force and confiscated the possessions of ordinary people and people who dared to resist were persecuted, executed or deported.
In the baltics where Kestas is from 100.000’s of people were sent to Siberia. Please relate this to the small number of inhabitants that these countries have: some 10-15% of people were transported like cattle to the most desolate places you can imagine.
Try to imagine 40.000 icelanders being deported to Greenland, than you have the picture.
My great-grandparents left Bessarabia (present Moldova) because of the anti semmitism which existed in czarist Russia and thru Germany (where my father was born) they ended up in the Netherlands, something which I do not regret at all.
We are still in touch with relatives in Moldova since we support the jewish community there and in Moldova it was exactly the same as in the baltic states: the USSR occupied it with force and violence, it confiscated all the land, all the possessions of ordinary people. Really if you owned a simple shop you were already ‘an enemy of the people’ and faced deportation.
Also from Moldova an enormous amount of people ended up in the GULAG.
Compare this to the EU which leaves the decision up to the icelanders themselves: you can vote in a referendum and the outcome will be respected.
You do not know what you are talking about when you compare the EU to the USSR, please do not use double standards,
@Fisy:
++++++++++++++++++++
>The EU certainly is not one big concentration camp which only has the purpose to exploit its memberstate. EU is NOT the USSR.
Not yet. But it shares many things in common and the same direction. It is more like the USSR than the USA, or Swiss Confederation.
COMECON and EU customs union have some too many features in common for those that remember Cold War days
++++++++++++++++++++++
In all honesty, have you ever been to the former USSR, or to the Comecon countries when they were still under soviet control?
This comparison is absolutely incorrect as anybody who experienced it can testify (please read the post of Kestas) .
USSR and the eastern european countries were dictatorships where independent voices were suppressed and protests were not allowed. this cannot be said of the EU: there are lots of protests in Brussels and people who disagree with decisions of the EU can clearly voice their objections.
Individuals can go to the european court: there have been cases in which this was much more helpful to them than their own national court. In the comecon individuals were NOTHING.
I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that public opinion in the EU managed to bring down Edith Cresson.
Such things were out of the question in the communist states.
Moreover COMECON did not work according to the principles of a free economy. The euro is still doing very well on the free international market.
Furthermore, principle of COMECON was that planning agencies in Moscow ordered the different members what and how much they had to produce. The EU does not have these powers: it can only stimulate or deter productions using subventions or fines. Memberstates still make their own economic policy.
In fact, the present situation in Iceland has a lot more in common with the COMECON:
-there is a fairy tale rate for the national currency which has nothing to do with the real market rate
-there are all kinds of restrictions on trade and the free movement of capital
-the authorities prevent the public from access to relevant information
Ultimate target of the EU is avoiding the wars which took place in the past in Europe and increase prosperity of ordinary citizens. in both fields the EU has been succesful.
this cannot be said about the Comecon.
@Peter. I’m no fan of Grimsson, but he’s only saying what we all knew. Iceland will (may?) cover the EEA guarantee of 20k euros, but they’re not going to cover 100% of non-domestic deposits.
Seeing as Kaupthing are talking about a recovery rate of 80%+ in that article, that means that the 20k euro guarantee is of no importance (except, perhaps, in cashflow terms in the unlikely event that Iceland decides to take that debt on for the German savers).
Fisy, have you ever lived in USSR to make such a stupid statements? I did…
As someone said here before no one is holding their breath and waiting for Icelanders to decide whether to join the EU or not. It is your country and you are free to decide your future on your own. Take it ease, EU won’t come with tanks, fighters and so on to conquer you as it was done to my country by USSR…
By the way, each country is free to leave EU whenever it wants. Please, remember the example of Greenland. Whereas we were crushed with tanks in USSR when we wanted to leave it…
>The EU certainly is not one big concentration camp which only has the purpose to exploit its memberstate. EU is NOT the USSR.
Not yet. But it shares many things in common and the same direction. It is more like the USSR than the USA, or Swiss Confederation.
COMECON and EU customs union have some too many features in common for those that remember Cold War days.
>There must be something very wrong in Iceland! How Icelandic politicians will get to EU when the very same politicians said “NO” until 2012 to the people from 2 EU members – Bulgaria and Romania. Source: http://www.althingi.is/altext/136/s/0222.html
UK was only major EU country NOT to impose a transitional arrangement when Romania Bulgaria joined EU.
All other major EU nations did so ask that question to them too before asking Iceland which is not member of EU.
But dont worry re: Iceland as EU memberstate.
Icelandic people getting more detailed understanding of EU now and its ways and think Social Democrats wont be able to ram through constituional changes to try and get the pelple that dont know the details to say yes.
Every day more and more Icelanders get facts about EU and its ways and understand how it is not good for Iceland soon that number will be very much more than needed to pass refendum.
>This a sort of a reverse bureaucracy, as you’d imagine the true EU bureaucrat would be naturally inclined to emphasise the obstacles.
Knowless it is refreshing to read from someone who actually understand how EU bureacruacy work.
It is not what they say they will do, but what actually do.
(This is not directed at Olli Rehn in particular, although skeptical of course any local politician that goes to EU partiliment or commission.)
As well as this current look at applying Common Fishery Policy to recreational anglers this is same ones came up with that ridiculous Regulations like the Common Fisheries Policy of which my favourite of example is that one Commission Regulation (EEC) No. 1382/87 which is good example of burecrats ideas.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31987R1382:EN:NOT
How can take seriously when they churn out this kind of stuff every few years again and again and again always not listening to sense and people of experiences of these things. It keeps on coming the same, with rubber stamp of EU parliament on it.
Very little of EU commission led regulations — which is all — that is not like this to less or greater degree and no way for EU members to veto it once passed as EU Directives.
No wonder is jealousy of EEA members Iceland Norway Leichenstein as they can choose which of these many that must take depending on local circmstances. That is how Iceland has less than 10% of EU laws incorporated mostly financial banking directives and related to competition in telecoms, etc.
And of course now know how good those were, and how fair other memberstates were to Iceland over those we have.
Okay, I am sorry, I am not sure whether it’s the EFTA court or the ECJ that has jurisdiction over this. One thing however is clear – the EEA passport scheme is European law which has to be regulated by a European court and not by an Icelandic one. I am very sorry to say but Iceland chose to take part in the passport scheme, now it has to bear the consequences, I am afraid – regardless of what the Icelandic President seems fitting:
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,606563,00.html
Will America collapse as Iceland did – of course conspiracy theory, maybe we’ll see some major changes this week http://gamyhan.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/dont-panic/
@VA
International law indeed is exremely complicated and boring.
As Knowless pointed out correctly the EU court has no jurisdiction over Iceland but there is a court for EEA, it is called the EFTA court to be precise (also having its seat in Lux; there is even an icelandic judge in this court):
http://www.eftacourt.lu/
I must say that already the english wiki page on this court makes rather tough reading.
However I do think that Iceland could not just simply refuse to meet its obligations.
Iceland has to import nearly everything and most things come from the EU.
In the worst case there could be some trade embargo and Iceland would suffer even more.
The communists in Russia could default on all obligations but the USSR was enormous and could (more or less) feed itself.
Iceland could not.
Moreover, the IMF would not approve.
Lets stik to fish and farming, thats the only thing we have proben to be able to do, or maybe we can try to produce thousands of Björks and Erros and maybe with that we have found a new way to make a living for the nation. because with one or two is not enough they even paty taxes somewhere else.
By the way for those who think that oil could be an asset, well first we would have to find it, then even if there is oil, it will take years to start actually seeing it and then drilling oil in the middle of nowhere in the atlantic wolud be so expensive that there would be no profit since the arabs can getit almos digging with a spoon.
and water? please be reallistic, how much water or even power can Iceland produce have you actually seen the damps in Iceland, Beevers bild biger, the amout of power that iceland can produce in a year is produce in russia or europe in a day.
Who could be so naive to think that Iceland has something to offer that the UE could be desperate to take Iceland? besides being a big rock in the middle of nowere that prodices nothing, with people that doesnt know to do anything but fish and shepard sheep, what ever else we try we fail I think thats clear by now, just go to a Mcdonalds I belive iceland is the only place in the world that you have to wait long cues for a burger, well, sometimes is fast, when there are forigners working on that shift. What can UE can spect when even the cocept of fast food is difficult to achive. you think is fish, why? if many have even say that if we join UE in 2 or 3 years the fish is finish, so I dont think they are so crazy for a couple of years of fish stock. If UE actually accepts Iceland it would be more as a pity publicity stunt, so the world can see that UE is united and solidarius with other european nations, and a way to expand their world territory control.
The whole issue of “conflict of laws” and jurisdiction is very complicated and boring, but also important for seeing how the entire Icelandic crisis will be resolved.
@Peter. Right now Iceland is not a member of the EU so the EU Court has no jurisdiction over them. Britain, Germany, Netherlands can take their dispute to Brussels and get a judgment against Iceland if they want to. But how do the Europeans collect on the judgment? Only by getting other EU countries and maybe the US to honor that judgment and seizing Icelandic assets in that particular country. If Iceland has assets (foreign currency reserves, for instance) in Russia, Switzerland, or Qatar, the EU members cannot collect that money.
It’s not even clear that the EU does have jurisdiction. The agreement between Iceland and Britain was simply a bilateral agreement between the two countries, enforceable by no one. If Iceland breaks the agreement, what happens? Nothing. The agreement becomes void. Britain could argue before the EU Court all it likes and claim the Iceland violated the EEA passport scheme. The EU Court might then revoke Iceland’s right to EEA priveleges within the EU. Iceland may not be able to trade within the EU, but they have nothing to trade so what difference does it make? They can sell their fish to Japan, Qatar, USA, Norway.
The only reason Iceland agreed to pay that money was to get the IMF loan package.
As for the parental guarantees for bank accounts, that is mainly an issue for the Guernsey, Isle of Man etc accounts. Probably Iceland, if it joins the EU, will lose that argument and be forced to pay.
The much more important issue is whether Iceland, ie. Icelandic Central bank, either implicitlt or explicitly gave parental guarantees to the German banks when they loaned the Icelandic banks $20 billion or bought bonds in that amount. That depends on the evidence, which (if Iceland has any sense) they will be shredding into tiny pieces inside the Central Bank building.
Similarly, does the act of nationalizing the banks make Iceland responsible for the bank debt, or was Iceland merely acting as an administrator in bankruptcy?
@Bromley. Iceland wants to join the EU is because it is broke and will get a “free” currency, plus subsidies. Two years from now Iceland will be desperate and even more broke than it is now. Pulling out of the EU means no currency and probably no more IMF loans either. That is not an “easy” decision.
@ Peter (Germany)
Iceland is not a full EU member, why would you think the Euro Court of Justice has jurisdiction in Iceland?
The EU court only has jurisdiction for EU member states.
Iceland is an affiliate member and is therefore subject to the term /rules of EEA membership, regulated by the EEA court.
That passport scheme comes under EEA
As required. Iceland adopted the EU Company law which included the de- regulation ideology. In fact adopting de regulation was mandatory in order to be a part of that passport scheme.
As I see it, full membership of the EU makes no difference to Iceland’s debt unless the EU wish to give Iceland a golden welcome handshake of debt forgiveness.
As I see it, the EU are making some dubious welcome overtures.
Iceland is still split on the idea of applying for EU membership.
It is only natural for a citizenry to be suspicious of what is involved with membership.
I would naturally think, what is in it for the EU, why are they bothering?
I would naturally be suspicious until you see what is involved, written down in black and white.
“However, the people [and governments] in the EU have better things to do than hold their breath and wait for Icelanders to decide whether to join the EU. Most of us could not care less and you can be sure that we are completely neutral on this issue.”
COULDN’T SAY BETTER!!! EU is not USSR. I have lived in USSR and now am living in EU. Those who say that EU=USSR etc., are so silly…
VA, I am sorry, but I can’t agree. As far as the foreign bank accounts are concerned Icelandic banks made use of the EEA passport scheme which means that it is European jurisdiction that applies here. Clearly, it would be neither a British, nor a German, nor an Icelandic court who could decide about this dispute but the European Court of Justice. It’s very simple, really.
@VA. Someone said in another thread that the Icelandic government/CB had given parental guarantees to various non-deposit creditors before the banks fell. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but assuming that it isn’t, the Icelandic government isn’t required to pay those creditors not covered by the EEA deposit guarantee.
Anyway, if they did join and it looked like the EU was going to shaft them over these debts to a greater extent than they’d experience if outside the EU, then Iceland could easily leave.
Funnily enough, I’ve seen a fair amount of posters say that there is a belief that joining the EU will mean that the Icesave debts are forgiven. I don’t see the logic of that position though.
@Easy
LOL, I think this letter was sent from the Bahama’s isn’t it?
@Eric
You are quite correctly formulating the way most people in the EU think about icelandic membership. The EU certainly is not one big concentration camp which only has the purpose to exploit its memberstate. EU is NOT the USSR.
@VA
Interesting point you are raising. Most icelanders fear that the EU is only after fishing rights while fishing policy is just a very small part of the overall economic policy of the EU. Payment of debts is a far more relevant issue.
The main reason that the EU wants Iceland as a member is that Icelandic membership almost guarantees that Iceland will pay Britain for the Icesave money and foreign creditors (mostly German and British) the money that is owed by the banks.
As matters stand now, Iceland can refuse to pay back the Icesave money and Icelandic courts will decide that Iceland does not owe that money (using the argument made last October by two Icelandic law professors). Britain in reponse could get a judgment in their favor in English courts, or in the European Court of Justice (the EU Court). There is no “neutral” court here. So, how could Britain enforce its judgment and collect the money, other than seizing the small amount of assets in Britain or elsewhere in Europe? They can’t.
Same situation with the bank debts. It would be two opposing decisions, one by Icelandic courts, another by continental courts, with no court able to force Iceland to pay.
If Iceland joins the EU, Iceland is obligated to follow the laws of the EU. When two EU members have a dispute, it is usually the EU Court that decides who is right. And how do you think an EU Court – dominated by the French and Germans – would decide the Icelandic-British-German disputes? Yes, that’s right, in favor of the British and Germans. And then the EU would effectively strangle Iceland until they pay, or agree to pay. If Iceland can’t pay cash, then the creditors would get assets of the Icelandic government.
As a citizen of the EU I am mildly amused by the thoughts of some Icelanders who seem to think the EU dearly wishes Iceland to join and intends to expoit Iceland like a colony. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Iceland is a beautiful country, but it has very little to offer the EU — except fish, perhaps, but do you really think fish is all that important to us non-Icelanders?
Of course Iceland is a democratic European country, and as such welcome to join the club if a majority of Icelanders want this.
However, the people [and governments] in the EU have better things to do than hold their breath and wait for Icelanders to decide whether to join the EU. Most of us could not care less and you can be sure that we are completely neutral on this issue.
To all my creatures:
With this letter I just want to tell you that you make me laugh, I do what I want and when I want and nobady tell me what to do. This country is mine, mine and forever will be mine, you can protest as much as you want and belive that you can change something, but this conrty still be mine, do you really think that somebody in this contry is above me and can actually tell me what to do? ha,ha,ha. I’m not going, will never go any were, I’m your king you are my servants, the sooner you accept it the happier you’ll be, I own this contry I build it my self with my bare ugly hair, if it wasn’t for me you’ll be ridding horses, and living in mudd houses, you owe me everything have you forgoten i gave you your pride and joy: PERLAN, I should be your god, just like few years ago, remember you belonge to me. I go if I want and when I want. And if I go I take My contry with me. you have to remember that this contry is MINE.
Atte. D.O.
@GUS
It really surprise me that you belive that there is a NEW GOBERMENT in power, It is the same people calling the shots they just put some other faces for a little while so people calm down, there is no such a new goberment, David Odsson stil has a mayority in the parlament both his party not only because 63 seats of his very own party in the parlament belong to him but because at least half of the seats from the “ex” aliance pary also belong to him, IF he goes away from the central bank (notice the BIG “IF”) he will just go on a short paid vacation, and very very well paid vacation, this parasite is not that “he will come back” he is never going anywhere, in the most dramatic scenario and just to give people a little boost of ego(we took the goverment down and david odsson too)he will take a well planned vacation and come back to rule his little island. It doesnt mean he wont be ruling it in the mean time, , he will still do it but just by phone from some hot beach with a cocconut and gin. What do you thing they are doing now? just planning his vacation. Where in the world have you seen that you can not fire somebody from his job, it is as simple as
“YOU ARE FIRE GET THE F@@K OUT!! how much do I owe you? here it is and some extra so you never come back” as simple as that!!!
and they will probably end up doing that but after they have given him all the time he needed to “plan” his vacation.
NIELS, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.
AMERICAN “Dear Icelanders:
Please do not disappoint the people of the world. You are in a special position – you are in the place to set an example for the world.”
LOOK AMERICAN, WE HAVE ALREADY SET AN EXAMPLE FOR THE WORLD, A CLEAR EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU NEED TO DO FOR RUINING A COUNTRY. OUR POLITICAL CLASS, SPECIALLY THOSE WHO HELD THE POWER, HAS GIVEN THE WORLD A MAGISTRAL LECTURE IN CORRUPTION.
I THINK THE WORLD HAS HAD TOO MUCH OF US TIL THIS POINT.
THERE ARE SO MANY ISSUES GOING ON IN MANY PLACES, EVEN IF ICELANDERS TEND TO KEEP THINKING THAT SOMEHOW WE ARE THE CENTER OF THE WORLD. WHEN THE REALITY IS THAT THIS IS A RURAL SOCIETY FULL OF PREJUDICES, MIDLE-AGE LIKE MENTALITY AND LOTS OF ARROGANCE, MAYBE WE SHOULD BOTLE OR CAN ARROGANCE AND EXPORT IT, BECAUE WE HAVE SO MUCH OF IT…
AND AS I SAY, THOSE WHO NEGLECT EU DO IT MAINLY BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE THE SAME FEUDAL LORDS RULING THIS JOKE OF DEMOCRACY..
HOPE THAT THE GOVERMENT IN POWER NOW CAN CHANGE THIS COUNTRY AND MAKE IT SOMETHING DECENT…
BALKANSON? WHICH COUNTRY ARE YOU FROM??
JUST CUZ ALL OF THE PEOPLE FROM EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE TOLD ME THAT EU IS THE BEST THAT HAS HAPPENED TO THEM AND THAT WONDERFUL CHANGES ARE GOING ON FOR THEIR SOCIETIES AND ECONOMIES. I HAVE MANY FRIENDS FROM POLAND, HUNGARY, CHECK REPUBLIC, BULGARIA, RUMANIA, YOU NAME IT!! ALL OF THEM ARE PRETTY HAPPY WITH EU, MAINLY BECAUSE THEY CAN TRAVEL AND WORK WHEREVER THEY WANT IN EUROPE AND HAVE A CHANCE FOR A BETTER FUTURE… BEFORE THE EU THEY HAD NONE…
EASTERN COUNTRIES ARE GOING TROUGH A PROCESS, COMING FROM A COMMUNIST ECONOMY INTO CAPITALISM AND THE EU IS NOT AN EASY TASK…
AT LEAST IN EASTERN COUNTRIES PEOPLE ARE NOW FREE TO MOVE, FREE TO VOTE AND MANY OTHER THINGS… AT LEAST NOW THEY DON’T HAVE TO WAIT AT THE QUEUE OF THE BREAD AND MILK…
MANY THINGS HAVE IMPROVED SINCE THEY GOT INTO THE EU, AND AS I SAY, WITHOUT EU THEY WOULD BE JUST COUNTRIES GETTING OUT OF COMMUNISM AND LEFT ALONE TO RECONSTRUCT AN ECONOMY IN A COMPETITIVE LEVEL. WITHOUT THE INTEGRATION IN THE EU SUCH TASK WOULD BE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT OR NOT EVEN REALIZABLE..
, Niels said:
@Knowless,
“I do not think a commissioner responsible for enlargement would be opposed to enlargement: such a thing would be a paradox.”
I was not adding thing of significance, just being tongue in cheek about EU bureaucracy,
I understood from the article that Rehn is just a member of the Commission for Enlargement but as you pointed out he is actually the Commissioner.
I’d agree with your assessment for the motives of Rehn for allowing himself to be publicly quoted in this way on the matter of EU membership for Iceland.
@Balkanson
You are a bulgarian right?
I notice you are saying a lot of negative things about the EU without knowing the facts.
First of all, some people on this forum have already pointed out, quite correctly, that the EU is withholding money transfers for Bulgaria because of the extreme corruption whithin the bulgarian gov.
They have warned Bulgaria time and again and they have given Bulgaria plenty of time to improve things. However, your gov has been unable to do this and now they must face the music. You cannot blame the EU for the fact that they do not want to use european money to fill the pockets of some group of maffia running your country while ordinary bulgarians get nothing.
This brings me to my second point: the fact that EU money for Bulgaria did not immediately improve your standard of living must also be attributed to your authorities: they grab the money, not using it for their own people. It is them you should be angry with.
My third point: you should not be impatient: even in countries where corruption was less and infrastructure was better, it took decades to see improvements.However if you visit countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece now you will notice that they have advanced enormously, mostly thx to the EU.
I have studied in Budapest where I still have friends and they are very happy with the EU. The EU at the moment is contributing to the hungarian economy to avoid collapse. Moreover, educated and hard working people from Hungary can go abroad and find jobs where they earn more than at home.
Your point about heavy industry being ruined in eastern Europe is incorrect too, at least the EU should not be blamed for that.
As you know yourself this industry was created by the communists. They did not have any economical considerations, it was just politics.
In Hungary they built the steel industry in a remote and isolated part of the country. It did not make any sense but it was a political decision: they wanted to turn the local population which had been strongly resisting communism into proletarian workers.
It did not matter that these factories stood in a useless and isolated region, it did not matter that they polluted the environment and it did not matter that they only produced rubbish that could not be sold on the world market: the communists wanted it this way.
Now this has been the case all over eastern Europe, also in Bulgaria.
And when communism ended there was no future for these industries: they only produced crap, they could not compete and they did not meet any environmental standard.
Some countries like Poland, CZ, SK and Hungary took a wise decision to abolish these industries and chose modernization and a free market economy. Many people lost jobs but new employment was created too.
In Slovakia for instance, old steel factories closed down but new car factories where opened. Here modern cars are being produced which CAN compete on the world markets and workers here have higher salaries and better conditions than in the past.
Unfortunately Romania and Bulgaria have been unable to make such reforms. As a result they are at least 15 years behind the countries I mentioned.
Your gov rather pumped money into obsolete industries, creating huge debts, than to embark upon reforms.
It was only a form of buying time since these factories are going bankrupt anyway, just since there is no future for them.
So in stead of wasting money for years your gov would have been wiser to follow the example of the countries I have mentioned.
Your comparison of ‘piramid games’ is also something which in my opinion misses the point:
the eastern european piramid games where criminal schemes in which people had to pay money INTO the ‘system’, making the people behind the scenes wealthy . The icelandic bubble economy was something very different: here people had to borrow money OUT OFF the system, creating debts for society as a whole.
In both cases the EU had nothing to do wit it.
@Fishy
A referendum would be the best thing for Iceland since it is obvious there is a lot of disagreement amongst icelanders about the future direction of their country.
If Iceland would decide to stay out off course life will change. It will not be so ‘glamorous’ as it has been in the past years. However Icelanders have proved troughout history that they can manage to survive and while this adaptation might be difficult for the yuppies who have been running the show in Iceland in the past years, people like you will manage, for sure.
One piece of advice though: you have a lot of fear and criticism of the EU.
Partly I can agree with that since the EU is far from perfect. But at the same time I noticed many icelanders are very naive towards the IMF and shady bussinessmen who are now turning up. Don’t be naive towards them! With the EU you know what you will get, the IMF is a lot worse.
Iceland goes when Eastern Europe comes from. No one from East European countries wants EU anymore and this happens just few years after they got into EU. There is no heavy industry in Eastern Europe anymore but Iceland builds more and more aluminium smelters. There are no financial pyramids in Eastern Europe anyomore but they very same came to Iceland and stole the money of the ordinary brainwashed people. EU is not good thing for the ordinary and free minded people. Don’t be brainwashed again. Be free and respect the freedom and the independence of the republic of Iceland. Say NO MORE to EU!
Soon there will be a referendum here were the CITIZENS of Iceland will then “hopefully” vote against EU membership.
The problem in Iceland is OUR problem, I dont need to be a BITCH to the EU for them to TRY to fix Iceland under THEIR terms.
The EU is waiting like a vulture to pick over the remains of OUR nation.
They now think that we are weak after OUR economic collapse.
This would be used against Iceland saying that “Iceland is in no position to negotiate and we must beg to join the mighty EU under THEIR terms”
If we sink without EU . for me “SO BE IT.”
I have my health ,my family, my pride and true freinds . What more could i want?
Without EU will Iceland sink back to the dark ages?
If we take a step back is that a bad thing?
You can now see were greed and selling your souls as taken this planet.
The problem will at least remain OURS a Icelandic problem and no matter how long it takes to fix “we eventually will”
what will be new whith E.U.?
more jobs? more clean business? just see whats happening whith some coutrys,england, spain, portugal,and a few more.
they have huge unemployement and no one see when the things will get better, england is living whith borow money( go to wikipedia to see the number of how much is there debt). iceland isn’t in a preatty situation, but i dont see the others in a much bettar situation.
At least “American” opinions are easy to understand :-), could it be a bit less emotional and more rational?
Dear Icelanders:
Please do not disappoint the people of the world. You are in a special position – you are in the place to set an example for the world. Your protests have forced some changes in your government, but not enough. Do not let them replace sleazy politicians with more sleazy politicians. I was very disappointed to hear about your new PM. Did you vote for her? Why must it take 80 days to have an election while your people are suffering every day? If you did not vote for her, she was placed there to deceive you!
And when you vote, who decides who is to be on the ballot? Who counts the votes? In America, the politicians and bankers decide what two choices we must choose from! And both choices serve them. Then they throw in a little more election fraud to top it off.
Please do not give up your protests until you have real results! The world is watching. The EU is just a banking cartel…cousins of the same people who defrauded your country. Do not be deceived! You do not need the EU, you do not need anyone! You have many resources in your country. All you have to do is use them. The bankers have convinced you that you cannot survive without trade. It is a lie!
When I heard of your protests, I was so impressed by Icelanders that I wanted to move there if you would have us. But there will be no point unless you do a thorough job. Your job is not done until every last rat has been removed. If you need money, the PEOPLE of the world will GIVE to you if you ask. Do not “borrow” from the bankers!
@Knowless,
I do not think a commissioner responsible for enlargement would be opposed to enlargement: such a thing would be a paradox.
The success of such a commissioner (whatever one wants to think about it) is measured by the degree in which he/she manages to ‘guide’ new members into the EU.
The present friendly statements of Rehn do have a strategical / political reason: by giving the impression that membership would easlily be possible the EU hopes to give a boost to the pro-EU politicians in iceland for the coming elections.
The EU did something similar towards countries like Croatia and Serbia: by giving the impression that they might be able to join the EU relatively fast it ensured the election of politicians that were more co-operative towards the EU than their predecessors.
Mr Rehn hides his burocrat face untill negotiations will start.
FISY, ALL YOU SAY IS MAINLY BASED IN YOUR FEARS AND IN YOUR INTENTION OF CREATING FEARS TOWARDS THE EU..
WHAT YOU SAY IN YOUR COMMENTS IS FANTASY, AND MITHOLOGY. WHAT YOU SAY SOUNDS TO OLD TRADITIONAL ICELANDIC HORROR STORIES TOLD TO CHILDREN IN THE WINTER NIGHTS… ALL PURE SPECULATION….
LETS GET REAL FISY… EU IS NOT THE WOLF YOU TRY TO PICTURE HERE, THE WHOLE ICELANDIC NATION HAVE FOUND OUT THAT THE REAL WOLFS AND OUR WORST ENEMIES HAVE BEEN ALWAYS HERE, BETWEEN US, AND WHAT IS WORST, THEY SACRIFICED OUR FUTURE FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR PERSONAL ENRICHMENT…
I DON’T WANT THE FEUDAL LORDS TO RULE FOREVER IN THIS COUNTRY…
PLEASE EU HELP!!
There must be something very wrong in Iceland! How Icelandic politicians will get to EU when the very same politicians said “NO” until 2012 to the people from 2 EU members – Bulgaria and Romania. Source: http://www.althingi.is/altext/136/s/0222.html
>This would be probably a good thing for other EU fishermen as it would possibly ensure they are also treated better.
It would be good thing for EU fisherman to get out of political control by EU commission on memberstate by memberstate basis. By leaving EU.
EU commission give no concessions to new memberstates. Not allowed to do so under critera of enlargment. If do become obvious how desperate to get Iceland its resources inside EU iron curtain.
>Iceland is no saint when it comes to sustainability, there are already species that have been overfished by it and this situation will become worse with the new bigger quota that have been given.
True that EU beurecrats don’t care, but Icelandic ones do because such important part of economy. But EU commission not interested in listening to Icelandic ideas, it is just false posturing.
Commission been told by EU memberstates including British fishing experts for many years — just ignore. Iceland not only one with good fishing experts just outside EU commission grip so have ability to put them into practice.
You telling me that EU commission now that is looking at applying Common Fishery Policy to recreational anglers can be trusted to do right thing?
You live on other planet.
Curious that a member of the Commision responsible for enlargement would actually be keen on expansion.
This a sort of a reverse bureaucracy, as you’d imagine the true EU bureaucrat would be naturally inclined to emphasise the obstacles.
AC said:
“If Iceland joins the EU, you can say goodbye to your fisheries.”
If Iceland joined the EU, obviously the situation with the fisheries would be crucial. Therefore a situation that would be acceptable to Iceland would be negotiated. This would be probably a good thing for other EU fishermen as it would possibly ensure they are also treated better.
Iceland is no saint when it comes to sustainability, there are already species that have been overfished by it and this situation will become worse with the new bigger quota that have been given.
@GUS
this prayer is FUN!
even better would be: THY EURO COME !
PLEASE EU SAVE US FROM OUR OWN TRAITORS!! WE THOUGHT THE EU WAS THE WOLF, BUT OUR WORST ENEMIES ARE PEOPLE OF OUR OWN WHO HAS STOLEN THE MONEY AND THE FUTURE OF OUR CONTRY…
WE DON´T WANT TO EAT FISH WRAPPED ON ALU PAPER FOR THE REST O OUR LIVES!!!
HELP!!!
OUR MOTHER EUROPEAN UNION
WHO ART IN HEAVEN
HALLOWED BY THY NAME
THY EU COME
ON ICELAND AS IT IS IN THE REST OF EUROPE
GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD
AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES
BUT WE WONT FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASSED US!!
AND LEADS US INTO THE UNION
AND DELIVER US FROM SJÁLFSGRÆÐISFOKKURINN
AMEN
HELP US TO GET RID OF THE
If Iceland joins the EU, you can say goodbye to your fisheries.
CONCERNING ISSUES IN THE NORDIC SEA AND ARTIC OCEAN, EU REALLY WANTS ICELAND IN, NO DOUBT… THE GOOD THING IS THAT EU IS GOING TO MAKE GREAT FAVORS TO ICELAND SO IT CAN RECOVER SOON.
I TRULY BELIEVE THAT ICELAND HAS A LONG AND HARD JOURNEY WITHOUT EU.
EU WILL BRING MANY GOOD THINGS TO ICELAND AND ICELAND WILL ENJOY TO HAVE ONE OF THE STRONGEST AND MOST STABLE POLITICAL UNIONS OF THE WORLD AND ITS CURRENCY.
SO I SEE WITH POSITIVE EYES ICELAND BECOMING AN EU MEMBER. ICELAND NEEDS ONLY ONE STEP MORE, BECAUSE ALREADY THE REST OF THE THINGS HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED, LIKE FREE MOVEMENT OF WORKERS, EDUCATIONAL COOPERATION, ETC… ICELANDIC UNIVERSITIES EVEN USE THE ECTS CREDIT SYSTEM… SO I MEAN. ICELAND IS PRACTICALLY MORE IN THAN OUT AT THIS POINT…
OF COURSE THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE FOR FREE, BUT IN THE LONG RUN IT WILL BE GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY.